char713

Got it. Shant put myself "out there" again with church members. Big mistake.

Okay, I will make it clearer. I said: Meaning I should never have brought up the subject at all here since too many people are either unable or unwilling to avoid chastising or instructing me on the subject, and some even do so unkindly. The subject was first brought up on post #12, where I first mentioned my own infertility. Then you said: I took this to mean that you were assuming (incorrectly) that I brought up my infertility in the first place in order to criticize others. And that because I did so, there is very little I can do to defend myself since in your mind, I was the one who started out being rude on purpose. So I responded: Meaning that if you might take a moment to go back to those posts, you will see clearly that I was neither the original author of the "primary hymn as a possible means of emotional persecution" idea, nor even the second person to comment on that particular example. I did not even reference that specific example until two or three pages later, on post #49. So again, I did not create this situation - which it seems now that you think I did - in which I first caused offense and then complained that others took notice. And finally, you accused me of lying and refusing to take any kind of responsibility for anything I have said: So again, I have not confused anyone else's points with yours. If there is the sense that I may have done so, though it cannot actually be supported with any quotes from me.. perhaps it is because you express the very similar sentiments only with less inflammatory diction. It is you who have mistaken other people's words for mine, if you think I ever said anything pointedly hurtful or fabricated. I did say that something you said was condescending and insensitive. And I have hardly avoided taking responsiblity for that, as I have attempted to articulate my reasoning on a few occassions since. Correction: I re-read my posts again and it turns out I was the second person to comment on the primary song thing, and that was in post 34. Still didn't say anything attacking anyone there either, though.

It's post #14 on this thread. Check the other 13 posts. No one else had mentioned the song before you. I have told you where to find the only places that I have spoken on the matter. My initial sharing about my infertility was in post #12. Its not a matter of conflation at all.

Try again. It was at least a full page of comments earlier than that. Edit: My original sharing was on post #12. The ones you are referring to are on #49 and #54. And those responses were following several from a few other people, who were following the thread that YOU started the first time you mentioned the Primary song. Edit again: I just went through every one of my posts on this thread. Post 49 I used the words "say or sing" and that was the ONLY other reference to your original point about the song, besides what I wrote in post #54. There are no other words from me on the subject anywhere else.

Because in my case, I have never said anything or complained to anyone who unwittingly hurt my feelings. Over these seven years, the only people who have heard from me about the subject are my parents, one of my sisters, my husband, my therapist and support groups/forums of other people going through the same thing.. and now all of you lovely people. I have never tapped anyone on the shoulder and said anything pointed, or that could be misconstrued as such, about their situation or my own. Generally speaking, I don't initiate any personal conversations with anyone with whom I do not already have a really strong rapport. I'm not saying that everyone is or ought to be the same as me. I am just pointing out the difference between asking for prayers for something we have worked hard to be ready for, and actually engaging someone else in a conversation meant to correct or insult them. In general, I'm sure you're right. I've just been spoiled I guess, having engaged with so many others outside of the church for so long on the matter, and for the most part having uplifting experiences there. I foolishly assumed that a forum of church members would be an even more safe place, since we are instructed so often to be charitable and Christlike. My mistake.

Oh, right. Because I have a problem that often makes me more aware of other people's good fortune than my own means I can never ask for prayers or support unless I am referring exactly to that same problem. I am not allowed to ask for help in public. I am not allowed to ask for help in public. *Repeat ad infinitum* By that same token, any young mothers who might be emotionally struggling with their own employment or financial situation but are happy to be having another baby have no right (by your score) to raise their hands in church and ask for prayers that their difficult pregnancy improves. This is the first time I have brought up the subject of my infertility and the difficulties it causes for me at church and in other social/group situations in any kind of public arena, btw. Thanks so much for making it memorable and a grave reminder never to do so again.

I'm 1/4 scottish, through my Dad's line. Our clan is farquharson, and our "ancestral home" is Braemar castle. That's almost all I know about it, but I look more Scottish than my other quarters...German, Swedish, or Norwegian.

This echoes what others have said, but I like Winston Churchill a whole lot so I'm adding it anyway. I consider this to be true when said of argument, which is the same as contention only minus the anger: "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."

Anatess, my bishop and RS president are already aware (have been for some time) of my situation and my ideas. They're really on top of meeting planning so talks have long been assigned for that week, but I have been invited to give a "spiritual thought" kind of thing before the start of RS. We'll see what happens. A big "thank you" to Suzie, Eowyn, and Lagarthazz for their most recent posts. Yes, Suzie I have a great therapist who specializes in this sort of thing. Very interesting question, Crypto. I think this thread might be one answer, obviously not ideal.

I thought I might finish up with one last response, but reading over all the most recent posts again it seems it make take me a couple of tries. Firstly. TFP, thank you for sharing your thoughts and I am sorry that you had such a prolonged struggle. My husband and I have been going through this for about seven years now. The most traumatic and stressful period of my life thus far, without a doubt. (And no, Omegaseamaster75, quite the contrary. I was wondering when/if other people with similar experience would come out and say so, statistically I knew there had to be at least a few.) TFP, I can't say I'm surprised that you weren't offended at all by Anatess' much earlier comment. It is easier to hear things like that from friends, and when you have heard them for as long as you probably have given your 18 years of difficulty. I am sorry if that is too great or rude of an assumption for me to make. My sister says the same kind of thing to me that Anatess did on a fairly regular basis, but because I know her and she knows me so well, it has never hurt and is usually one of the ways she lets me know she cares. But coming from a stranger, I rarely know what to say in response. I am usually just aghast that they had the nerve to suddenly give me any instruction (that I did not explicitly ask for) about how to deal with the private inner workings of my own body. (Or the emotional/social ramifications thereof.) Also, when have I ever said that the ideas themselves are hurtful? They usually aren't at all, they're usually coming from truth anyway. It is entirely about the delivery.. who, how, when, where, and why. You say you and your wife have never been persecuted, but that people have said insensitive things. And that you choose to forgive, which is great. But whatever you choose to do, the way you react to something insensitive said by another person, that choice does not modify the original act. Forgiveness helps you, and sometimes the other person to feel better. Doesn't change the fact that their comment was in fact an act of persecution, however minor or great. Since you (and others) seem to think I am hallucinating or fabricating things... here are a couple of the gems I have heard from church members in the past year: I visited my parent's ward at Christmastime last year, the ward that I lived in from age 16 until I married my husband. The people there know me fairly well, I had callings in Primary, Sunday School, and Relief Society once I graduated from Young Womens. I was one of 8 active laurels, a really great group. I hadn't been back to visit the ward in four years. So, at that time the Relief Society president had been in her calling for almost a year, and my mother is her first counselor. She greeted me warmly as most of the ward members did, and there were two other of the laurels I had graduated with who were there visiting their parents, with young children in tow. This sister, the RS president, walked with me to sunday school and on the way told me the following, (paraphrased slightly): "It's so great that you're visiting your mom, it's like you almost never left! (I said it had been a while, yes, but it was good to be back.) She said, "Well you know how Jamie and Elise (the two of my peers also visiting) both have kids, well we always thought you'd beat them to it, and you don't even have one? It's so disappointing to all of us, and your mom too, that you have let all of us down like that. You were raised right by your leaders in this ward and it hurts us that you've thrown that all away, and that you ignore Heavenly Father's commandment to have children. Please think about it, maybe a good new years resolution to consider!" And at this point we had arrived at Sunday School, she quickly pulled me in for a second hug and walked away quickly. No exaggerations here. I had to spend the next few minutes in the ladies room to compose myself. The second non-imagined experience was in the ward we are in now. We had only been there a few weeks, but I had been talkative enough in RS lessons and such for most of the sisters to know what my husband does for a living, what I do, and that we had been married for a few years. Every week before the lesson we have a "good news moment" where we share news and such... obvs. I raised my hand and asked if people might keep my husband in mind and in their prayers, that he was up for a big promotion at work. A sister who to this day I do not know her name, its possible she has since moved or is inactive, she tapped me on the shoulder and whispered. "My favorite church quote from President McKay is a great reminder, that no other success can compensate for failure in the home." It is possible that I misinterpreted her meaning, but how likely is it that I did? These are two of many similar comments and pieces of unsolicited advice, most of the others are too personal for me to share here. I am still working on forgiving both of these ladies. But I don't think I will ever be able to look back on these memories and convince myself that their words or their tone were kindly ment. And finally, I suppose I ought to be thanking you for the lesson in humility, self-sacrifice, obedience, and remembering baptismal covenants and all that. I guess if anyone here has the right to tell me to get over myself its someone who has been through something similar. Definitely not coming to you for emotional counseling though, but I'm sure you don't mind.

Having just returned from a fun day of chasing my two little nephews around, I find myself without the energy to compose thoughtful-enough responses to all of your newest posts and messages. Just wanted to let everyone know that I have not ignored them, or run away from the conversation. Just one thing though for tonight. I did make a response on the last page, I think, in response to Backroads about what I think are the best things to say when bringing up this subject with a friend who you either know or suspect to be dealing with fertility issues. That post does not necessarily adequately speak to what Anatess is suggesting that I might write, but I wanted to try to correct the misjudgement that no positive suggestions have ever been made here. More tomorrow.

You think someone who is not participating in this thread would be helped in their life in some way by Leah mocking me, and what she perceives me to have said? How does sarcasm help anyone, ever? Sure it can give a laugh if that's what you need, so maybe there's that. I'm sorry but you have completely misunderstood lagarthazz here. I believe she meant "my story is uncomfortable and confronts people with such a harsh reality that they may not feel like it is appropriate to form an opinion" which often is the case. Something this horrible and difficult happens to a good person, it might be difficult for anyone else to respond with anything more than "I'm so sorry that has happened to you."

My "accusations" against you have been three, maybe four. -That a statement you made was judged by me to be condescending and insensitive. -That you are of the opinion that majorities, rather than minorities, are the ones to whom we ought to pay the most attention and care, regardless of anyone's feelings unless the are in the majority. -And finally here, that you are not commenting for any apparent reason but to point out what you feel are inconsistencies in my character, the most recent of which was the result of human error.. i.e. me not explicitly typing out e.x.a.c.t.l.y. what I meant and stupidly leaving it open to your interpretation. -And maybe you consider it an accusation that I pointed out your lack of response to a previous post of mine. By all means, let me have it. Why you are feeling so prone to increasing contention that you have to restrain yourself so is beyond me. It is my feelings that are caught up in this subject, my everyday life, and yet I have said nothing more aggressive or contentious than those three or four statements above. You pat yourself on the back for not "shoving my words down my throat" but I am the one being very personally attacked here. I recall words used, by not just yourself, granted, words such as whiny, bitter, close [sic] minded, self centered, insensitive, seething resentment, presumptuous, pathetic, in need of therapy and medication (private matters, not for a stranger to say), and I have all-but been called a delusional liar on a couple of occassions. I did not pull a single one of those out of context, I didn't need to. And yet you are the one having to pass up opportunities to put me in my place? You mentioned the primary song as an example, quite a while ago too. I responded to your example and provided my own, and others have since run with it. Are you related to whomever wrote the song, and that's why the mere suggestion that it might not be the most appropriate choice of song in ALL scenarios is so inflammatory to you? I do understand that it conveys an important message, one that I hope all children might be able to confidently express. I have NEVER ONCE suggested that it never be sung again. I used it simply as an example of how teachers and leaders might show a tiny bit more consideration for those whose lives are not quite as peachy-keen as the lyrics happily proclaim. I very much regret responding to that particular tangent at all, clearly the song and its subject matter far, far more to some than I could have predicted.

Countries: United States, England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland (I am of scottish heritage, so I count it as its own country in my head) France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Italy, Portugal, Norway, The Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Mexico, Quebec, British Columbia, Japan, South Korea, Guam (technically US I know..), Tonga, Samoa, Fiji. States: All except Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire. Temples visited.. counting only the ones we have performed ordinances in?: Bountiful, Mt Timp., St. George, Ogden, Manti, Logan, SL, Provo, Denver, Mesa and Snowflake, Idaho Falls and Rexburg, Nauvoo, Palmyra, San Antonio, Atlanta, D.C., Preston and London England, Laie Hawaii, Fukuoka and Tokyo. Also Kirtland, though it barely counts. There are many more that could be included if we were including temple grounds as a qualifying visit.

Amazing how you've blown it all way, way out of proportion. I have NEVER ONCE said that Mothers' Day ought not be celebrated or recognized at all at church. I have NEVER ONCE said that people ought never be exposed to examples of or teachings about things with which they cannot immediately relate. Find where I have said any of this, or stop with the flippant comments. And Vort, it is unlike you to ignore a comment that was addressed to you. Even more unlike you to comment twice afterward without making mention of previous conversation points. This leads me to believe you either find my words ridiculous (not likely, since you'd be all over tearing me down if that were the case) or you simply have nothing to say on the matter. In which case, why are you still here? Free country, free forum, I get that. I submit that you, like omegaseamaster75, are enjoying being contentious for its own sake. I have no problem with letting this thread drift off and disappear, except that others are making constructive comments, and not simply tearing other participants words apart for no apparent reason.

Yeah, definitely should've been more specific. I crave candor from people who have a right to say something that direct about my situation since they KNOW me and we have a history. Of course I don't crave candor from strangers on the internet whose first impulse is to talk policy rather than compassion.

I completely get what you are saying, and thank you for saying it. My mother has told me that she hates that she can't give me an easy solution. She says that "it eats at her" that she can do no more for my infertility, than for my little brother and his type 1 diabetes. There ought to be more lists on what to say. Everyone has things they wish they could hear their spouse, BFF, sibling, etc say. What I think is universally wished for is the opportunity to be listened to without judgement, so they can talk about this huge thing in their lives without needing to feel so guarded. Personally, I crave candor. I wish that the people in my life would tell me if they are confused or concerned, and ask questions. In fact, even if they really have no interest I would prefer to be told that up front so that neither of us waste energy over-sharing or avoiding the topic. Where and when you have this discussion, and with what attitude are the most important things. As long as it is approached lovingly, not just in tone, but you actually express first that you love them and want them to feel safe talking to you, the rest I am sure would go smoothly. Problems arise when people make comments out of the blue, and with a prying or sometimes even accusatory tone. Worst of all if it is in public, between meetings at church or any other time when they do not have the mental capacity or emotional breathing room to craft a response, and hear from you in return.

I don't expect everyone to know. I wouldn't have a single friend if I did hold everyone I met up to that impossible standard. The people I have been talking about all this time are those who do know, because I do tell my Bishops and RS Presidents and VT companions (when I have them) my situation, as early as I can once we meet because it matters that much to me and in their positions, it is kind of their job to know. The hurts that happen, the ones I have spoken of, always happen after I have told them this about myself. Whether the things they said were just uninformed and well-intentioned, or thoughtless, or actually intended to hurt my feelings I usually don't know. Also, I feel the need to stress again that it is not just MY sensitivities that are being upset by the extra things (outside of words from the pulpit in Sacrament or the Primary children singing to their moms) that happen in church on Mothers' Day. It is not even just LDS women who feel this way. I haven't taken a poll or anything, but given how many forums, facebook groups, and in-person support groups that I am involved with, I'd say it is fair to assume that MOST women who have struggled or who are struggling with infertility or child loss have negative feelings about the matter. I have never said that I think my trials are greater than anyone elses. There's that saying that if we all threw our struggles into a pile and could see everyone else's, we would quickly take ours back. I try to trust that that is true.

You only highlighted the phrases "if they are conscientious," and "if they are more like Vort." So forgive me if I am making an incorrect assumption here, but it looks like you took it out of context. You have stated, in this thread and others (while maybe in not so few words) that your perspective is that the 9 are the first who should be thought of, and that the 1 will somehow be taken care of otherwise, or else will just learn to deal and ought not feel ignored or hurt. The phrase I used was "if they are conscientous of the 9 AND the 1, they will find a way to approach both interests equally." Are you saying now that your perspective is the opposite of what you have been leading myself (and others) to believe? That the church is for the individual, rather than the individual for the church? Also, I am not presently remembering comments made by the other people you mentioned in that last post. I do remember Mordorbund's comment as it is conveniently on this very page. That comment was in reference to the way the church doctrine and policy addresses those members who are living in less than ideal circumstances. It also said that individual adaptations have to be made. That is what I am talking about. The gospel is true for everyone, whether they are experiencing every facet of it right now in their own lives or not. What we teach from the pulpits and in our homes has to be centered on that, I do not dispute it. But individual adaptation in my case would be not asking to be placed in a calling in Nursery or young Primary, avoiding church attendance on Mothers' Day in the future, and keeping my mouth shut in lessons in RS about motherhood since others get prickly about non-mothers giving insight about such things (again.. in my experience).

Did I say "all of the wards" or did I say the three wards I've lived in as a married person? My family moved around a great deal when I was growing up, were members of 11 different wards in 8 different states and countries before I was 17. And you haven't asked me to go into details about leaders and members who have belittled and hurt me, not only me in fact but also my husband and my mother over this subject. I certainly can, I remember most of what was said at the worst times. But that's quite a bit more negativity than I would prefer to heap upon everyone here. .. But reading over your comments in this thread again, I'm beginning to suspect you are just interested in contention. I don't know what it is you have against me, or against a few of the other people you've been addressing in other threads. Perhaps you could tell me.

What? I never said it was the rule, that my experience must be also what everyone else has experienced. How could anyone honestly suggest such a thing? I never did. It was YOU who called me out, said I was probably making it all up because of my inability to see straight, through my own pathetic self-pity. Yes, we all have issues. Some issues were chosen, some were not. Some are much more apparent than others. Some only affect the victim for a short season, others for the their whole lives. Some make an impact on the group, others are private. We can only call ourselves Christlike if we are trying to help everyone work through their issues, whether we have the knowledge or insight to know the details or not. The main way you help those who are suffering in silence is to be empathetic and cautious. In public or to large groups, you teach the truth as it is found in the gospel and champion those in the scriptures who have shown us the way to follow. You give testimony based on experiences of the ways you have seen those scriptural qualities reflected in your own personal heroes lives. Those things apply to everyone, regardless of their circumstance, because they reflect eternal truths that are necessary for the happiness and exhaltation of all.

I agree that is is difficult to draw the line, to comfort all who are in pain equally. What matters is the attitude behind whatever choices leaders and teachers do make. If they are conscientious of the 9 AND the 1, they will find a way to approach both interests equally. If they more are more like Vort, and others, however, who think that the 9 are the ones who deserve the most attention and consideration because things are going right for them, and they are the best examples of living the gospel to the letter, then the problems stated throughout this thread will only perpetuate. Thoughts come before actions, therefore thoughts are what will make the most difference in how we serve one another.

I'd be happy to share the street addresses and ward names, but of course there is no real proof I can offer. The first time it happened was several months before I found out that I might never bear children. The bishopric in our ward had recently changed, and the Bishop introduced the change by saying he wanted to "be more specific" in his recognition of the congregation throughout the year. He then led the congregation in a sort of game, having different "levels" of mother stand, first the new mothers, then ones with more than two children, then mothers of five or more. Then had different groups sit down until the oldest and youngest mother in the ward were left standing, and they both recieved roses. Father's Day was unusual that year in that the men are not, I think, usually recognized much at all but that time he had them stand too and receive cards made by the primary. Most recently it was in the ward we are in now, the children gave out candy leis (sp?) to every female but only the mothers were invited to stand. I remember it happening also a couple of times during my childhood/youth, but those were in military branches overseas. Those I remember because my aunt who has struggled with fertility issues was the person we were visiting, and we were there during that time of year on purpose. I'm guessing you are the kind of person who thinks that clinical depression is mostly self-inflicted, that its victims are selfish, lazy wallowers? You clearly have no patience for any degree of "self-pity" as you seem to think my problem with it to be much larger than it is.

I have no issue with the importance and sacredness of motherhood being taught at church, when addressing whole groups. My problem is when people take those teachings - which are correct - and use them to belittle and hurt those who are not able to participate in that thing which is so desireable and necessary. I am thinking of several ward leaders in the three wards that my husband and I have lived in during our marriage, and many more members besides. Mothers' Day throws all of those things into sharper relief, creating opportunities for childless women feel even more lost and forgotten than they already do. The worst of it is when the ward observes those little traditions, such as having all the mothers stand after the close of Sacrament meeting to receive a gift. Those are an awful few minutes for all non-mothers, but it usually doesn't stop there... the second and third hour meetings are often kept on the same theme. I think it is possible to show appreciation for the mothers in our lives and wards without making it about individuals. Talks, prayers, a statement from whichever Bishopric member is presiding, all these are fine by me. If a mother is not recognized properly by her husband and children at home on that day, I am sorry. But it is their job, not the ward's.

I have never found a tea that I enjoyed the taste of, usually just use them when I have to. But tea parties are not really about the tea, are they? They're about pretty dishes and tiny desserts, dressing up a bit, and genteel conversation. That seems very "Relief Society" to me.