char713

I'm sorry, Anatess, if you think I was attacking you. The only one who I recall having said anything very harshly to was Vort, and I might have gone overboard... but that was after being told by several people that I ought to just get over it, and be happy with totally non-comforting and often condescending statements, such as that every woman can be a mother in her own "special" way. Anything else I said was to warn and inform, that certain things are deeply hurtful to couples who struggle with infertility or child loss, and that it would be wise to think of or look up some kinder things to say to any of your RL friends and family who might be struggling.

Purposefully exposing (other) minors to pornography is akin to molestation or other sexual abuse. No adult who has ever done any such thing, whether they are repentant or not, would ever be placed in a Primary or Youth calling. An unrepentant youth absolutely should be prevented from associating with those he attempted to harm.

I'm pretty bummed about this news. I was a little worried when I saw a facebook news blip a few days ago that he had been admitted to hospital for severe chest pains that he might be nearing the end of his life. My cousin has had a pretty big crush on him for most of her life, today has been a hard day for her. Definitely starting a ST:OT binge on Netflix when I get home tonight. RIP Mr. Nimoy!

I am sorry I have indeed criticized or berated anyone here. I have strongly and wordily advised that for the sake of their own personal relationships, that people re-think some of what they have said here. And in Vort's case, I have criticized what was said, I never said he (?) is himself a condescening or insensitive person, only that his words here have been. By my perception, which of course could be skewed as this is a very emotionally-steeped subject for me, it seems as if I have been accused of not understanding the one thing which I have been taught about and prepared for my whole life, and that I am having to work much harder to achieve than most. I have been told that I need to move past and get over my pain. I have been told that I ought to broaden my perspective and desires about what my future will look like. All of this from relative strangers, some of whom have gone on to say that they have no intention of researching any more on the subject or bothering to take any additional care.. that to do so was insane. I think that was the word used.

Church is not a place we come to celebrate how great everyone is doing. Church is where we come to renew covenants - the first of which is to "comfort those that stand in need of comfort, mourn with those who mourn", etc. If a primary president or chorister or whoever it is that makes the song selections in Primary is aware that there are several children who are keenly aware that their daddy never comes home, then she is being irresponsible and insensitive to make that song any kind of focus for the whole group without first addressing the problem privately with those children and their mothers, or carefully planning the song to be introduced when those families might be on vacation or otherwise not at Primary. It is not important enough that the majority of children learn a song that is a celebration of the blessings they have, that hurt should be needlessly caused to those who are deserving of a greater measure of kindness.

Condescending: adjective having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority. Insensitive: adjective showing or feeling no concern for others' feelings. The parents are the haves, the childless are the have-nots. A blessing that is necessary for the exhaltation of everyone has been withheld, often for a lifetime, from some people for reasons which no one can fully understand or explain. Saying, as you have, that no one should have to exercise any extra measure of care, or that they ought not get to say or sing whatever they want to because of the chance of hurt feelings in the have-nots is simultaneously condescending and insensitive. You and everyone else who have had this huge blessing and life's work virtually fall into your laps, without having to give up almost everything to get there - as infertile couples do - say that no changes need to be made or extra thought given, because the chance of "hurt feelings" is insignificant and beneath your notice.

I don't think I ever said that youths who have experienced fewer apparent trials have no business being missionaries. Or that those who have faced more challenges are automatically better or more worthy than the rest. I am sure that I never said that. What I did say is that a few of my friends are more likely to listen to someone who can understand and relate to them.. that's all. I know that missionaries are not set up to be counselors, but they are involved in the investigator's process of repentance. In the case of my brother's friend, her experience seems to be keeping her from being considered able or worthy to serve. Her parents and friends are all greatly confused and praying for her to find out the real reason why, because she is doing incredibly well nowadays considering what she has been through.

I have tried a few of these things, candida and gluten have been ruled out for myself and my husband. We've tried two popular herbal regimens over a three year period, no dice. I'm not familiar with BodyCode, I will have to look that one up. Thanks!

See post #34. And the first half of post #30.

It was my thread to begin with and I have tried a few times now to bring it back to my original subject, but also cannot ignore when people have made surprisingly ignorant comments.. because chances are they know at least one person, if not several who are suffering in silence about this and whose feelings they hurt whenever they say such things. I am sorry that you are not interested in learning how to be kind to those who are suffering. Statistically, 1 in 8 women will suffer from this issue at some point. Very few of them are any less sensitive about the subject than I am.. most of them are much more so, if the members of two facebook groups and three forums I am involved with online are any evidence. And every one of them who attends church, wishes that mothers day would not be such a big focus of their church services. It is a very popular subject of discussion in our community.

I agree with you, Anatess, about the essence of the gospel being one of peace and happiness. But that is NOT what Leah was saying. My pain is not keeping me from being worthy to serve, my pain is not making me lash out and hurt others or drag them away from the truth, my pain is my own personal burden and whether I move past it or not, the fact of the matter will remain. Why does Leah think that I must be "willing" to look and move past my pain? Because it is inconvenient to her, because she does not think it is valid enough to express concern for. I very much doubt that I am misinterpreting this. Sympathy does not move people to tell others how they should feel.

It is the culture, not doctrine or policy that is the problem. Not a lot that can be done about that other than by individuals, and maybe bishops. Well, the YW lessons as I remember them could use a little more reality.. acknowledging that not everyone will get married, not everyone will have children, and that there is much, much more to womanhood than either of those roles contain. The lessons themselves ought to say as much because leaders might choose to shrink from talking about those subjects if left to their own discretion alone. And I really wish the holidays of Mother's and Father's day might not be part of sacrament meeting. If the opening prayer mentions it, or if the Bishopric says something brief at the beginning or end of the meeting is one thing. But making it the subject of the whole meeting, and of the second and third block meetings as well is quite inappropriate. I have heard the same opinion from people other than those simply struggling with childlessness. Sisters who have lost their mothers, or who have wayward children, and single sisters especially, I have read that most of them would rather it be done away with altogether.

Thanks for telling me that I ought to get over it. I've definitely never heard that one before. *eye roll* I'd like to see you try it. Seriously, something that affects every decision you make, financially and personally and professionally and medically and that leaves you feeling unspeakably empty every day, weakened, and of no importance to anyone except your spouse. Something that makes you hate your body, hate your other life goals, and that robs you of your friendships with other women because they cannot, or will not, accept you and attempt to understand you. That makes you afraid to go to social events and your nephews and neices baby blessings for fear that you will break down crying and furthe damage important relationships and lose more of your own self-respect. I could go on.. but I hope you see that this is something to not simply be moved past or gotten over. It takes decades, if it ever happens at all.

It is not an uncertainty or possiblity that celebrating and exhalting the role of motherhood or fatherhood is hurtful to infertile couples. It is certain that it does. We are told almost constantly that to have a family is the height of possible happiness, and much of the reason for which we are here on earth, and that parenthood is the most perfect realization of either gender's role. The reminders are nearly constant, that blessings and experiences and relationships are being withheld from us, for whatever reason.. and that there is so very little we can do about it except wait to patiently and faithfully on the Lord's timing. We are persecuted by our peers, often on purpose. Your comment about "bruised feelings" grossly minimizes the problem. There are faithful members who are driven to attempt suicide over this, brought down and so emotionally weakened that they are, in moments of desperation, willing to risk their lives and salvation to be freed from their grief. I am not saying that because a few people are brought to such dangerous thoughts and actions that we should do away with all teachings about the family, that would be insane. But there has to be more room made for sensitivity and consideration. Something as insignificant as a feel-good primary song, or a holiday to recognize the "elite" is hardly more important than the depression, shame, and grief that is experienced by (statistically) dozens of couples in every ward and stake across the world.

I have no problem with "non-infertiles" having opinions about the struggle and everything else. Provided they've trained themselves a bit either through open discussion or reading. My parents and grandparents and three of my four siblings have done none of this "sensitivity training" and it is extremely difficult for me to believe they really care about me if they are not willing to even look up the subject online. The opinion of many, if not most victims of infertility or child loss within the church, is that the "every woman a mother" type of talk is well-intentioned, but still, very condescending. It is an easy way of lightly addressing the members of a congregation who suffer childlessness in silence, acknowledging them, but not their feelings. To me, it is just another way of saying to the child (as I said in an earlier post here) who got nothing for christmas that he is lucky because now he has time to perform selfless service for others.

Really? If you're struggling with something and need to counsel with someone about it, you seek out a specialist. The Savior is of course the most obvious and correct choice in all situations. A human with wisdom gained from experience and their own solid testimony has to be the next best option, surely?

I'm not sure what your point is. Your friend is working through her difficulties as best she can. If she tried to tell another woman, as you have, to "just adopt" or "just foster parent" as you have, she would probably get a very similar response to the one I gave you. Search any infertility support group or forum and you will find several articles and posts about some of the most unwelcome, most insensitive responses to a woman struggling to become a mother. The top two universally despised responses are "just adopt" and "maybe it's not God's plan for you." For some parents, adoption might be the answer. But they make that decision, reach that conclusion on their own and through very careful counsel with the Lord. It is not for everyone, and no one is wrong for deciding that it is not the right path for them. Just as no missionary is wrong for being counseled to maybe consider a local or service mission and then deciding to turn it down. It also does not give them any less "right" to grieve the loss of the opportunity they had been raised and taught to expect.

During this period of my life, (age 27) my education, church callings, and my childbearing and rearing are the only things that are acceptable pursuits in the opinion my ward and the church culture in general. Everything else is selfish and vain. This is not the way it should be, but it is the way it is. When I get past the age of 35 perhaps I will be less hounded about the subject, but in my current state, the questions never cease.

I'm sorry but this sounds terribly condescending and insensitive. Those who are suffering, every day, ceaselessly, because of a condition (any condition) that they neither chose nor caused in any way, are and should always be the first to deserve our charity, consideration, and respect. As difficult as parenthood can be for some, that difficulty is assuaged many times over by the support that parents receive from the church, government, and society in general. As difficult as a mission can be, it has an end date and the "perks" that come from having served, whether actual or simply perceived, are that person's for a lifetime. Those who are worthy to serve and have worked extra hard to become so, only to be turned away, have to live with the societal and emotional consequences of that for the rest of their lives.. not to mention the perpetual "what if?" questions in their head unless they are able to obtain a firm answer from the Lord at some point. It is obvious that I have come to the wrong place with this question. Please consider anyone in your acquaintance who may be suffering through grief caused by infertility or child loss, and NEVER say this in their presence. For the sake of your friendship.

I am infertile, and three seperate teams of doctors have not been able to tell me why I cannot concieve. The hardest part of the past six years have been all of the cultural and emotional ramifications of this non-diagnosis. So, as much as I would enjoy serving in YW at some point, I don't think I ever really could. I do not think I could trust myself to keep my mouth shut during all of the lessons about their future motherhood. The reality is, 1 out of 8 women will have trouble conceiving or carrying a pregnancy. Statistically, thats three girls out of our ward's current YW group who will struggle to get the chance to fulfill that role. I am certain that I would be much better off right now if I had never participated in the YW program. There was no way for anyone to tell what my future life would look like, so of course no one is to blame, but I was built up over 6+ years to expect and depend on my ability to bear children. The higher the expectations, the harder the crash and deeper the disappointment. I'm not saying we should devote entire lessons to infertility, or do away with lessons about motherhood, but there really ought to be a better balance between the two. Because while the church is kind to childless women, the people and culture of the church absolutely are not. Same goes for the expectations for "all worthy young men" to serve full time missions. Big expectations, preparing your whole life for an event, then when it can't happen you are supposed to just be okay with it. I think of this as a child who has to watch all of their siblings get everything they want for Christmas, but they recieve nothing, and are told that because they have no new toys to busy themselves with.. they can clean up the kitchen.

I guess my confusion lies in the fact that her depression is under control, and has been for quite a prolonged period. I know of several former missionaries who learned that they were in fact clinically depressed while out in the mission field, and often had to wait till they returned home to begin proper treatment but were still able to complete their missions. I know it would be taken on a case-by-case basis, but the decision to not even give someone a chance when they have clearly gone through a lot more maturing and testimony-building life experience than the average worthy missionary.. well it just doesn't make sense to me. I would rather my investigator friends were taught by someone who has really been through a rough time, not of their own choosing, and lived to tell about it, than someone who had a more idyllic youth and haven't been truly tested or purified yet.

We don't have children, but yeah we have their names all picked out. I am sorry to say we both quite dislike our surname, it is extremely difficult to match up names with since it is two syllables, begins with a hard "K" sound and ends with a sharp "e." That eliminates all names that end in that same sound (easily half of all acceptable girls' names) and all C or K names because we don't want their full names to be "sing-songy." The initials we have are, for girls, ALC and LAC, and boys PRC and JCC. The girls' shared, flipped initials are purely coincidence, and hopefully our theoretical daughters won't mind.

I wonder how God came up with the idea of maple syrup, and how many varieties of it there would be.

My little brother entered the MTC today. Incredibly proud of him, not least for the health difficulties he has had to overcome in order to be able to serve. Type 1 Diabetes that he has had since he was 12 would have kept him from serving, and did delay him for almost a year. But we spent some time yesterday talking about one of his friends who is having difficulty getting her mission papers together. She recently found out that she may be excluded from being able serve because of her past struggles with anxiety and depression. I understand that there are medical restrictions that can make for a difficult mission for some, if the missionary would require regular doctors visits, days of rest, or any other special treatment it can be a problem, and might keep some from serving. But my brother's friend has been in treatment for clinical depression since she was quite young, went through quite a few dark years, but it has been four years since she has been back to "high-functioning" levels. So, I am wondering what any other reasons might be that depression or other such mental illnesses could keep some (otherwise worthy) young people from being able to serve regular full-time missions? Depression is not something that anyone chooses, or causes for themselves.

I see. I really should have added that those behaviors would be wrong if all the individual did was invite me to their wedding, since that is all we are talking about here. Of course if they choose to get angry about it, or start forcing the undesireable aspects of the relationship and lifestyle on me or my loved ones, then the issue would no longer be only about courtesy and kindness.. it would then become more about spiritual preservation for myself and my loved ones. And there is no amount of "rudeness" outside of things that are, indisputably, abusive that might keep me from protecting those for whom I am responsible.