Rob Osborn

And all I can hear is barking from😃 your side of the fence

You too.

Its all dominos. If God created all the observable, or possible to observe universe, then the next, and the next, and so on forever which woyld include the whole universe. Logic tells me this isnt so. Logic tells me that God creates "within" the universe of the which God himself is in and has always been within. If we too are to become Gods with this earth as our eternal home planet then when we are creating we too will be creating within the universe also, and so on to the next generation, and so on and on forever.

Pull it out already then☺️

Its definitely a communication problem when you keep assuming all I spout is dogmatism.

This is one of those moments when you have to ask the class- "c'mon guys, were smarter than this".

So, you think I am speaking dogmatism when you have a closed loop mind. Hum... go look at the definition of dogmatism- ": the expression of an opinion or belief as if it were a fact : positiveness in assertion of opinion especially when unwarranted or arrogant"

Im not sure. I do know that other galaxies and solar systems came and past before he created ours. This all happens in the universe according to Gods work and glory.

The relevent passage- 1 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the iheaven, and the earth upon which thou standest. (Moses 2:1) The words "this heaven" & "this earth" are in reference to our solar system/ galaxy and our earth. We will pass through three "heavens" by the time this planet is celestialized. We arent talking about three universes here but rather three solar systems/galaxies.

One of the things in my work is building vintage racecars from scratch. We plan them, engineer the details, and then follow those plans using materials available. We can do this because we live in a world full of resources.. This is no different than God. He planned and engineered our solar system. Then, he took of materials in the already existing universe he is in (it being the same universe we are in), and carried out the formation and order of a new solar system.

Aye. The universe itself exists, it has no "beginning".

So, where do you believe God was before Genesis 1:1? Was he inside the universe and part of it or outside of it?

And so what is meant by "beginning"? Do you think God created the entire universe at this "beginning"?

Im not sure what you are asking.

What's there to collaborate? A spiritual witness vs. secular understanding? Secularism is our new God.

That's not saying much. In Moses it has more detail. God speaks of the creation relating to this heaven and this Earth, not the whole universe.

I'm a firm believer that pretty much all our scientific advancements are driven by God and His revelatory processes. But, like all things, it carries with it all the baggage of worldly aspirations. Much of evolutionary theory that deals with life's origins are that baggage I'm talking about. We don't need it, belief in it has brought absolutely no new advances in technology or a better understanding of the universe or nature. I think it's actually hampered advancements. I once prayed for many days to see an atom. After months, when I was falling asleep, a vision opened up and I saw an atom. I was amazed at the detail workings of the lattice work on the nucleus. It wasn't anything like I pictured. I drew a picture of it somewhere. God reveals these truths of nature and the universe to us as we are diligent. Our feeble technology just has no way to see much of it. I believe God wants us to know all these mysteries but he also wants it guarded too. Why? Because the actual power of the priesthood holds the keys of all knowledge. Not only that but the order to laws in physics and nature are all governed off of actual priesthood authority. Could you imagine trying to convince secular society that everything we see in nature and the universe is because of priesthood authority and power? That's why dogmatism will continue, and, why God will not reveal his truth to secular society to be mocked.

Let me just say that you are spot on in where science has and continues to have the greatest value- that of technology and engineering. That said, they do themselves a great disfavor and cause many to doubt them when they delve into subjects and theories that deal with what cannot be observed or "why" or "how" life exists. I dont need nor care for science in trying to tell me how or why life came about. Its obvious enough that they just completely lack the ability to know these kinds of things. Expanding from life on this planet, I also dont put much faith in their ability to assume and teach things about the universe of which, from scientific observation, they really know nothing about on a grand scale. To make sweeping statements about the state of the entire universe, its age, its expansion, etc, isnt really honest. We have no idea whatsoever the actual size of the universe, how much energy exists, etc. I find it rather intriguing, if not downright amusing, that whenever we have major advances in technology for viewing and understanding space we just find we were wrong before in our understanding and when enough of those new acknowledgements add up, our entire scientific paradigm changes. Call it what you will, but its not science when we make assumptions about something we cannot even comprehend. I find the deep space pictures rather intriguing because it kind of shows us that man and his understanding is nothing! We keep trying answer the why and how of the universe from mans knowledge and perspective. The problem with that is its always finite, always limited. And science dont want to pair up with the best brains of religion and philosophy to help solve some of the enigma. Many years ago I became very interested in space and general relativity. I read books about it and researched things out myself. I wasnt getting really anywhere. There just werent adequate scientific explanations for the rational of the why and how of the universe. One night I had a dream. In the dream I was in school in heaven before I came here to mortality. In the class I was in Jesus was teaching us about physics and planetary motion. Then, it was appointed my time to come down to mortality. Jesus said basically to me that because of the veil my understanding of these things would not be with me in mortality and that besides, mans understanding of the universe and the how and why of it is too distorted for the real truth to be known. Nevertheless, He did pronounce a blessing upon me that not all of my knowledge of the universe would be witheld from me, that I would retain or access certain parts of it. After that dream my understanding of space and time changed a lot. I also came to the realization or rememberence that to God, all things are numbered, that He himself is in linear time and that everything in the universe effects everything else. God has an unlimited playing field (space) to bring to pass his works. We need to stop viewing space as a mere linear space-time continuum that had a start and a a possible end. God brings into and out of planets ti bring to pass his works. The medium of space itself is contained or within the realm or law of the spiritual finer matter. We speak of "dimensions" when in reality there is only one. Our instrumentation though only works within that set of parameters. Theres just so much that limits our understanding because we fail to recognize that there isnt an end to space. There isnt no edge, no beginning or end. It has always existed. Thats of course problematic for our material minds to comprehend. So to is it hard for us to understand that the reason Gods glory increases is because he is actually creating or aligning and organizing more energy. There is no end to energy, its not finite. And, energy is directly linked to knowledge.

Okay, I went back and read it how you proposed. I then went and read all the verses over again and it's even more apparent to me that in speaking in verse 102 it is speaking in reference to having all in mind, "these all" are "they", meaning this is a strict dichotomy or separation point, as the only ones of God's children on this Earth who aren't part of the Church of the Firstborn. There really isn't a way to get around or understand it with the way it's worded. It separates God's children into two groups in this verse. Those groups are- 1."they" who are "all" with consideration to "all" of God's children not gathered with 2. The "saints".

Hum...I guess I have a hard time trying to understand then why in verse 102 it singles them out as all of the ones not gathered into the cloud if there is some other group also. The wording seems rather specific that they are the only ones not brought into the cloud.

There is a place for you in our congregations. There are many who have faith transitions or are of little faith. By their fruits ye shall know them. Us LDS should be welcoming to all of Gods children. As long as folks aren't disruptive as some apostates like Dehlin are, we welcome all who want to be part of the Church of Jesus Christ community.

Judas is a son of perdition. That is what the scriptures really do say- 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12) 32 But behold, it sorroweth me because of the fourthgeneration from this generation, for they are led away captive by him even as was the son of perdition; for they will sell me for silver and for gold, and for that which moth doth corrupt and which thieves can break through and steal. And in that day will I visit them, even in turning their works upon their own heads. (3 Nephi 27:32) This is directly in reference to Judas who betrayed him and sold him out for money. Judas is a son of perdition.

When the discussion turns to speaking of things "outside" the universe, that should be the clue to everyone that we dont understand what we are talking about- no one of us knows about things outside of our universe. Im not going to debate ID theory with Vort or anyone who do not recognize the scientific value of the theory. Its obvious to me that they are just spreading the same dogmatic agenda that prevails and truly havent researched it from reputable scientists. Its not worth the back and forth.

Verse 71 doesnt answer my question in light of verse 102. Thats my conundrum. In verse 102 it states that this particular group is the only group not caught up into the cloud into the Church of the Firstborn. Verse 102 reads- 102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud. If I am reading it correct, it says this is the only group not part of the Church of the Firstborn.

Sure. Many people in wards are one foot, in one foot out. But, remember that to be one foot in members has no saving power and no ultimate joy.