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Rob Osborn

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  1. Rob Osborn
    The "second death" is only mentioned a handful of times in scripture. In every instance it is in reference to the lake of fire and brimstone where the devil and his angels are cast into after the millennium. So, unless one can prove the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are in the lake of fire and brimstone with the devil and his angels it's a purely bunk and false doctrine to claim those kingdom inhabitants suffer the second death!
  2. Rob Osborn
    I will take note thats your way of saying Im correct. Thanks.
  3. Rob Osborn
    Please cite scripture that refutes So, on the very specific topic of saved or damned, can you cite scripture showing where I am in error? I may indeed be incorrect. Refresh my memory, dont just say it is so. Provide some scriptures.
  4. Rob Osborn
    Im not walking on apostate ground. We all have some beliefs that we disagree upon within the church doctrine. Its rather obvioys by everyones differing views on this matter in here. No two people completely agree. That isnt grounds for being apostate. If I am teaching vain and foolish doctrines as you contend, rather than attack my character why not refute them with scripture? How are my views harmful when I teach the exact doctrine that Christ said is his doctrine as he himself stated in the Book of Mormon? So, is my teaching the Book of Mormon plan of salvation leading people into harm? Should I stop quoting the Book of Mormon?
  5. Rob Osborn
    I do respect your views. I also "respectfully" disagree. Would you please address where you think my beliefs are incorrect?
  6. Rob Osborn
    I'm trying to have an honest and open discussion. I am not the one who is being disrespectful. If you want to be disrespectful that's fine, whatever, but if we are in an open public forum where all can have input and be listened to we should at least engage everyone's honest inquiry. You stated your belief about being saved/damned. I disagreed. It's your obligation in fair debate to reply and counter instead of give me the finger so to speak.
  7. Rob Osborn
    You are being very disrespectful. I understand that when we debate and I always bring scriptures to the table and use them and you have nothing to counter from scripture so you resort to your disrespectful tactics that it must be your way of putting blinders on. I get it.
  8. Rob Osborn
    Why even have a conversation if one isn't willing to listen and participate?
  9. Rob Osborn
    I wholly disagree. The Book of Mormon does lay out the saved/damned dichotomy. So does the New Testament, they run parallel. The D&C builds upon this same dichotomy. Saved and damned still have the same meaning in the D&C as the BoM and NT lays out. These fundamental mistakes with semantics is the number one reason we can't figure it out. The principle of truth is in the Book of Mormon lays out the framework of the plan of salvation. Being saved means being saved from an eternal hell with the devil and his angels. Being damned means to be sentenced or condemned to hell. Those words always mean that in the context of the plan of salvation.
  10. Rob Osborn
    You guys gonna just continue to throw my name out there...
  11. Rob Osborn
    The parable speaks of laborers in the Lord's kingdom laboring for the souls of men. Coming at different hours represents mortality where we are born into the vineyard at different times. So yeah- some were born thousands of years ago and have been working for the Lord as converted laborers longer. But the reward which is salvation from hell is the same regardless of when one comes into mortality and accepts the gospel and in turn labors with those who came before for the salvation of souls.
  12. Rob Osborn
    Even I don't stand by the one word must mean the same thing each time. However, when dealing specifically with the gospel topic of "salvation" and "eternal life" it does pretty much mean the same thing every time.
  13. Rob Osborn
    Humm...lots of throwing my name around and stating things incorrectly about my beliefs. First off, the definition of spiritual death is "being dead or unresponsive to the Spirit". Merely being born into mortality isn't spiritual death. Spiritual death comes through sin and disobedience. Children, we are told, are "alive in Christ" meaning they are spiritually alive. When we sin we die spiritually and need to be "reborn" again to the things of the Spirit. We do this through repentance and baptism and getting the gift of the Holy Ghost. Thus we are born again and alive again to the spirit- we are spiritually alive. Now, as for why I believe the way I do about the three kingdoms. We have to look at the whole picture and how it was constructed line upon line. Section 76 was given fairly early in Joseph's restoration of the gospel. Many truths were lost. Section 76 was given in answer to Joseph's inquiry with his belief there must be more than one kingdom within God's mansions. Thus section 76 was given. What's important to understand though is that even though Joseph is given the vision he is still left to interpret the kingdoms. Fast forward now to the endowment. I'm surprised no one has brought this aspect into the discussion. The endowment is the most complete discussion we have detailing the full plan of salvation. In our endowment we learn about our progression from our heavenly Father into the fallen world and from there through world's of glory until we return again to our Heavenly Father's presence in the Celestial kingdom. In order to do so we progress from the telestial kingdom to the terrestrial and then to the Celestial kingdom. Important to this progression, and what's desperately missing from this conversation, the required endowment and accompanying ordinances and covenants are centered directly on our marriage with our spouse and is the very required obedience and key words for admittance into the Celestial kingdom. Now one could rightly say this is my own interpretation but the reality remains- we are in the lowest heaven or glory now. Paul ascending to the third heaven is meaning going from our heaven- the telestial to the vision of the third- the Celestial where we will progress to.
  14. Rob Osborn
    Heaven forbid anyone be interested in understanding scripture.
  15. Rob Osborn
    And we call ourselves "saints"....😐
  16. Rob Osborn
    Can you prove me wrong just using scriptures then?
  17. Rob Osborn
    My personal thought on the matter is that without entering marriage we can't even be saved at the great day of judgment. It's the only way we become "perfect". Now, whether there are degrees within the CK, I'm not for sure, although, to make it even to the lowest one still must be married.
  18. Rob Osborn
    Yes it does. In the context of the scriptures my definitions I gave are correct.
  19. Rob Osborn
    Exaltation in LDS doctrine means the highest state of happiness and glory within the Celestial kingdom. Eternal life in LDS doctrine means to be resurrected and spiritually alive and live in Gods presence eternally as families. All of those saved from hell receive eternal life. Salvation in LDS doctrine means to be saved from physical and spiritual death. As one can clearly see, salvation and eternal life are synonymous. Exaltation is a status elevated above salvation/eternal life. This is why things get confusing. People tend to think all three terms mean the same thing.
  20. Rob Osborn
    So then, when in the history of mankind has repentance and baptism been forced?
  21. Rob Osborn
    But all of the scriptures cited support how I'm defining it. Eternal life is given to all of those saved from perdition. That, the scriptures are very clear on.
  22. Rob Osborn
    So, you aren't going to cite any scripture eh? I only debate this because it's a false doctrine.
  23. Rob Osborn
    So, if we are all alike and share alike in Zion, is Zion Satan's plan?
  24. Rob Osborn
    I mean, if you could offer up a scripture or two, otherwise it's your word against the scriptures and who are we to believe?
  25. Rob Osborn
    16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual. 17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord. 18 Yea, and it bringeth to pass the condition of repentance, that whosoever repenteth the same is not hewn down and cast into the fire; but whosoever repenteth not is hewn down and cast into the fire; and there cometh upon them again a spiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness. (Hel. 14:16-18) 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power. The scriptures testify that only the son's of perdition partake of the second death.