Rob Osborn

Only the son's of perdition partake of the second death, all the rest are saved from the second death and go into eternal life. There isn't any scripture reference stating what you propose.

Everyone will receive one of two outcomes- eternal life or eternal death. Eternal life is synonymous with salvation. Eternal death only comes upon the son's of perdition for they are the only ones who partake of the second death which is an eternal death.

Eternal life is synonymous with salvation. All of the saved will receive eternal life. Exaltation is to enter the highest of Celestial glory with an eternal spouse.

I actually believe we have a lot of the same philosophy just that communication gets in the way. And I don't always communicate the best. What I meant by them leaving at the same time was that nothing changed there. They will still leave like you said. By kids dropping off I am meaning that they are more likely to lose interest or fall away if they are going to when they are of priest age. We don't generally see an active 11 year old go inactive when they are a deacon or teacher. Ever wonder why the priest quorum president is the Bishop and that if a bishop is doing his calling correctly his main focus on the ward is in the priests quorum? It's because priests are vulnerable or more prone to fall into bad habits of sin and fall away into inactivity.

And this is where experience on the frontlines makes all the difference. I have been in the quorum every week and over the years have noticed the general dropoff in activity during their time as priests. Its a literal fact. If they are going to fall away it will be most likely be in their time as a priest versus teacher or deacon. In our stake alone, only one in ten are going on to serve missions. There are many factors and whereas it isnt my main goal to send them all on jissions, it is my goal to strengthen each one and help them become converted disciples of Christ. Without unity in the quorum it just doesnt happen. I have seen it over and over again. With changes to quorum being on Jan 1 it allows the training and placement of new quorum presedencies to be more regular and allow more members of the quorum to serve in a leadership role. All these factors build the unity the priests desperatley need. They will still all leave priests at the same time but all of them will be in an organized quorum for longer than before. The Lord works in simple yet marvelous ways. There is nothing negative this does, only positive to strengthen the youth and better prepare them for the world. Overall, young men from start to finish will be in organized quorums longer and move together in groups from quorum to quorum strengthening quorums even more.

Not sure if you are good at math but...every young man who enters priests will be in the priests quorum longer now regardless of when their birthday is. Everyone entering the priests quorum will enter when they are either 15 years old or 16 years old and a few days. Almost entirely though, they will now enter priests and stay a minimum of 2 and a half years instead of barely two. This means that in general they will spend more time as a organized quorum together and have a better opportinity to unify.

Im not gonna discuss this any further with you, have a nice day.

Welll, its kind of the same as for the the relief society president to tell the YM president what the YM need and how to run the program.

It has everything to do with it. Bear with me for a moment to see where I am going with this.

Hum, not sure where or what you are saying. Let me ask- have you been a Young Mens president or a counselor in the YM program for an extended period of time in the last 10 years?

All else being equal (same amount of birthdays month by month on average throughout the year) we will now have priests 6 months longer. Not only that but knowing that we generally get new priests at the beginning of the year, and a higher percentage of multiple at a time, will help with training and unifying the quorum. Trust me, I've wanted this for a long time, there is only pros to this, no cons.

Spot on, not wrong. We created social monetary help due to the need to help the poor, just as long as it's even, cause I don't want to give more than I should... In a true zionlike society there are no poor. Everyone works to help themselves and others without the selfishness coming into play. We are both too selfish on the one end and lazy on the other.

My point was that we aren't even having this conversation if we weren't selfish with our own money.

I've been working with YM for the better part of twenty years. One of the problems that we have in quorums is a lack of unity, especially in the priests quorum. This new policy change will help to strengthen, unify, and prepare the YM better for receiving the Melchizedek PH and entering the world. Having them longer in priests will resolve some of the problems that we are seeing with them falling away from the church, not being converted to the gospel, and being unprepared for serving missions and going into the world.

I hear this term a lot but I'm not sure we understand. The government doesn't forcefully take money from the rich and redistribute it to the poor. No army tanks show up at the wealthy mansions and threaten to level them to the ground unless they give up their riches. We pay taxes. More importantly, we vote in the lawmakers that best represent how we want society to run. So, this "government" is really just an extension of what voters/citizens want. The reality of it is we are too selfish as a society to truly help out the poor, more than our fair share (because we are too selfish) that we devise laws that try to make helping the poor the least bit stressful on ourselves so that we can have more money for our own toys that only we get to play with. Think of this- if we were to truly do away with all government assistance it would place people in more of a position to truly help out their neighbor whom they may not like. Heaven forbid!

In "general". That's the point. In "general", the man is to provide and protect. In general, most men are gifted with a stronger body made for working (to provide for their family). That's the point.

And we aren't even speaking of doctrine yet, just policy. I have a really big feeling we will see doctrine changes.

I went to the Ballet last year and it is truly amazing to see the great difference in genders and their roles. Night and day, and yet compliment each other. Life also is like the Ballet in so many ways.

Also, in verse 102 (and the main reason I started this post) is a description of all of the inhabitants of the earth. There's only two groups- the saints who are caught up into the cloud and join the Church of the Firstborn, and those not caught up. And who are they? The son's of perdition who go into the second death.

It's my opinion, and strong argument for, that the telestial kingdom Joseph is writing about is our very earth right now, not a future kingdom. Verse 103, if you cross reference, is a group destined for the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. The problem is that the second death doesn't come until after resurrection and judgment at the end of the millennium. Cross reference- 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev. 21:8) So, why is Joseph seeing son's of perdition in the telestial kingdom?

D&C section 19 refers to the son's of perdition. They are the only ones in the end who do not repent and thus must suffer as the Savior did. Look at the timing- 3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done. 4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. 5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. The destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world at the great last day of judgment is at the end of the millennium. Those who did not repent by this day are the ones found on the left hand. And who are they? The devil and his angels (son's of perdition)

Mosiah states that there are two outcomes- born again sons and daughters of God on the right hand and those on the left hand. The left hand is reserved only for tge devil and his angels to be cast out- 26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all. 27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father; 28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:26-28)

Hum...if one keeps reading in Mosiah ch. 5 they will find that if they aren't born again, becoming son's and daughters of Christ, they do not merit salvation and are not made free and instead are found on the left hand of God and are cast into outer darkness.

But, its lawmakers who do such. They mandate and overrule (man made raodblocks) in order to have gender equality.

I have long been in doubts over IQ tests. I dont believe they truly measure ones real intelligence. I was intrigued by them back in high school. I went and bought all these brain game workbooks and IQ tests. Over the course of several months I was able to improve my IQ by 15 points. I noticed a pattern in IQ tests that they werent all created equal and some were more driven in some areas than others. Regardless of who scores better on an IQ test, intelligence itself isnt something we understand yet alone measure. I would bet though that God created both sexes with the same levels of intelligence, we just dont know how to appropriately measure each sexes ability against each other.