Rob Osborn

I was making a comment on those traits of disciples, that they all study the scriptures diligently and you go completely off and defame me. Look, if you want to start a topic on section 76 then I will chime in. I'm trying to contribute to the conversation. Thanks.

My father taught me a lot about defaming others. It seems there are those who like to defame others in these forums.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/defamation

Obviously you don't have a spirit of discernment then because what I wrote was exactly what I meant. Stop accusing me of things I never meant please.

I don't know where those is coming from. Why is it that people read things in to what I say? I try to contribute to the conversation and inevitably people start wanting an argument and saying stuff I never said. I never said one had to be a master scriptorian. Neither did I say they had to agree with me. I had this verse in mind when I posted- 2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God. (Alma 17:2) In our day I think that expands to not only scriptures but to conference talks and other church related material. I have never met anyone who fell away from the church who were reading the Book of Mormon everyday. When I look at all the prophets, apostles, seventies, etc, one thing they all have in common is a pure love for diligent scripture study. In fact, I have never had or known a member strong in the church, male or female, that didn't love studying the scriptures. That's all I meant by my contribution.

Sounds like you are just wanting to debate anything I say.

I've noticed that true disciples understand the scriptures because they are diligent in studying them. The lazy and wicked just don't devote time to studying scriptures.

It seems that Jesus is speaking and saying that one can find the way of eternal life as taught by the word of God. But, in doing so you should come to know Jesus of which the prophets testify of within the book. Therefore, how can ye suppose to know the way of eternal life if ye know me not? In relation to my statement, without serving the Lord, putting what we read to work, we cannot come to know the way towards eternal life. It never fails me that when I can't find an answer that if I serve others I find it. The Jews, whom Jesus was speaking to didn't truly know the way of eternal life because whereas they could recite scripture, without doing works (serving Him in his vineyard) they didn't understand the gospel or way of eternal life at all. I see that in our church in some degree also. Many confess to know the way but know not because they serve not.

Thanks for expounding your beliefs, much appreciated. Now I think we can have better dialogue. I believe we both believe the doctrine on principle on almost all points, I take great joy in that. My own understanding of the doctrine has changed over the years, been slowly advancing in further light and knowledge. My first real breakthrough was when I came to the conclusion that all kingdoms had to repent and be baptized. That was determined from establishing the principle of redemption and how one is forgiven and cleansed from all sin. I was pretty happy for a long time. And then contradictions started popping in. I studied it out more, then the eyes were opened to the temple dialogue and the next thing I knew was that my whole paradigm had changed. I saw it in a whole new light. From there I had to go back and read the Book of Mormon over with new understanding and it was then that I started receiving real confirmation of the absolute truths concerning Christ's doctrine as found in the Book of Mormon. I still had hurdles though. Specifically, the D&C seemed contradictory. So, I continued to study and pray and then it clicked one night that section 76 is largely misunderstood. One thing that happened was researching recordings of Joseph Smith. Several things stood out. The first was that it appears over the course of Joseph's life that even his view of salvation shifted. In the end he came to realize the essential requirement to repent and be baptized was the only ticket out of hell. That's a huge paradigm shift for him who very early on championed the idea that much of Christianity would be damned and then saved without repentance and baptism in a lower kingdom. Then he spoke about climbing the rungs of a ladder and that one must begin on the bottom and ascend one by one until perfection was achieved. This came along with his expounding upon Jacobs ladder where the three rungs represented the telestial, terrestrial and Celestial. Then came this I found in reference to section 76. Note the words- "The sublimity of the ideas; the purity of the language; the scope for action; the continued duration for completion, in order that the heirs of salvation may confess the Lord and bow the knee;" Wording specific, whether he realized what he was saying at the time or not, the continued duration for completion is more reminiscent of the progression of man through world's of glory, or as climbing from one rung to the next on a ladder, from kingdom to kingdom until they become cleansed and perfected as a singular body of saints presented spotless to the Father. Well, then I had to start over again, new paradigm shift again. It was at this point I made a lot of flow charts, scriptures references and groupings, checks and counter checks, and restructured section 76. It was then I saw the simpleness of the vision. The vision was in inquiry by Joseph Smith that certainly there must be more places the saved go as it didn't seem feasible that all could attain perfection. The spirit then shows Joseph the duration for completion to really perfect those He saved. At the time even Joseph didn't fully understand the vision. But, luckily for us, it was written in such a manner that can be decided so to speak and fully realized. Thus, in speaking of the just and the unjust the Lord shows Joseph that all of the saved who come forth in the resurrection of the just, those whom are saved from the eternal hell, are spoken of in verses 50-70. I couldn't believe it!! So, I cross referenced each verse and the qualifications and attributes of the saved and sure enough, the characteristics of all the saved are recorded in those verses. The Lord is trying to show Joseph that in the end, at the end of the millennium, those whom he saves all become this- son's and daughters of God, their names written in heaven, sanctified from all sin, etc. It is under this premise that the endowment makes sense. The endowment is the whole plan of salvation. In order to be saved, both the living or the dead, have to enter in and obey all the covenants given. Given, is that this all doesn't happen during our mortal sojourn. We are told there that the telestial kingdom is in fact the very world we are now in. From there we advance into the terrestrial kingdom and from there to the Celestial. Just like the rungs of the ladder Joseph extrapolated on, we do indeed progress from one kingdom to the next until we become all perfected as one body of saints all to receive eternal life like the scriptures speak of. So, what then remains is how we, as a body, advance our paradigm into alignment with what has been revealed. My point in this post is to try to get people sold on the idea that in the end, the kingdom of heaven is truly only the Celestial kingdom and all of the saved will be there just as is recorded by St. John the divine in the last book of the NT. It must come full circle, and it does once we realize these truths.

How then are they cleansed? It's not possible to be cleansed by suffering alone.

I already know God doesn't lie, neither does he change his statututes and laws. Therefore there must be an error in the script. That was my point. God doesn't have a double standard. If someone committed an unpardonable sin it doesn't mean "well, mostly".

We don't know if God lied or didn't. We can't be sure of the validity of text. We do know that part of the Bible was translated through Joseph Smith. In it he changed a key critical passage in reference to David's sin. Here- 13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Now compare the JST which reversed the judgment- 13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath not put away thy sin that thou shalt not die. So, let me ask, did God lie in the Old Testament, or, was there an error? Certainly, based on this evidence, the validity of David's forgiveness from the OT perspective loses all credibility.

The scriptures themselves testify that David committed the unpardonable sin. The scriptures testify that one who committed the unpardonable sin is a son of perfition. Here- 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. Compare that with section 132- 27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

I disagree. "Portion" here is not defined. It could just as easily he in reference to - 17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. The bottom line is Christ will save all those he can through the gospel and all the saved will be forgiven and cleansed. David committed the unpardonable sin which means he can't be forgiven. It clearly states this.

Well, I'm putting that against the D&C where it says his sin won't be forgiven him in either this life or the next. So, not really sure how one can be redeemed from hell if they can't be forgiven.

Sorry but it's just that everyone has their own way of saying things. Just trying to ask you if you personally believe the Telestial heirs will have to repent and be baptized. Appease my inquiry please.

The Guide to the Scriptures is the official doctrine of the church. That's what I usually quote in reference to questions regarding the official position of the church. That said, the scriptures themselves are most authoritive as far as official doctrine is concerned. To add, I never said it is never to be disagreed with.

So, you don't believe they repent and are baptized? Is that correct?

Do you think they repent, get baptized, change their carnal nature? That's what I was asking.

My understanding is that we are now on/in the telestial world/kingdom. We cannot go where God and Christ now dwell. And where do they dwell? On worlds without end.

Do you believe the Telestial heirs will be cleansed? And, how do you fit this verse into what you believe- 14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness. (Alma 7:14)

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on what the Kingdom of Heaven is, what it includes and doesn't include. Jesus speaks a lot about the Kingdom of Heaven and the many mansions there. What are your thoughts?

I agree fully. The intersting thing with the gospel in large part is we have already been revealed these mysteries in much of their fulness but they still lie in mystery for a lot of us because we are unwilling or unable to open our eyes and see or hear when the HG speaks. I have found that most truth waiting our discovery has been there all the time we were just looking at it from the wrong angle for so long.

I have found when I run into a roadblock in understanding doctrine, along with studying, Going out and serving others and through that process of doing I find the answers to my roadblock I was studying.

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." Galileo