Rob Osborn

Well, it's certainly debatable on what requirements it takes to become a son of perfition. Lots of opinions exist but in truth it's one of two things or a combination of the two. The first is a turning away altogether from Christ. One must not hold a high level of priesthood to become a son of perfition. The 1/3 host of heaven all chose to follow Satan and thus are son's of perfition. Pretty sure they didn't have the high levels of the priesthood. The second is committing the unpardonable sin. David committed the unpardonable sin. He shall not be forgiven.

Basic resurrection here.

I think anytime you introduce "allegorical" into a historical context it ends up conflating it into something fictional.

I find it interesting that all the while of his life he thinks like this, for we aren't told different, even entering into holy covenant with God and yet attempts to deceive the Lord and get away with murder. Hum... Now, both Judas and Cain were the same...

Certainly, we can go over those verses one by one. But we need to start with verses 2-5 to preface the context. 2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world. 3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John. 4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom; 5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son- In verse 2 we read about the book of the names of the sanctified which are the inhabitants that will make up the Celestial world. This book is "the book of life". If your name is in it you are saved into the Celestial kingdom. But, if your name isn't in it you are the devil and his angels which go into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.- 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15) This brings up an interesting point because in order to be saved one must be "sanctified" from "all" sin. This hearkens back to section 76 where it speaks of all those Christ saves (everyone except the son's of perdition) being sanctified from all sin- 40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us— 41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; 42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. The "world" spoken of here are his sheep- those the Father gave to him to save. And what is their status at the end of Christ's work? Sanctified and cleansed from "all unrighteousness". Thus, their names are accounted in the book of the names of the sanctified as that is what they all are- sanctified. The only group left are those son's of perfition who are "filthy still" who Christ does not save and are cast out with the devil and his angels. In verse 4 it speaks of those receiving "eternal life" which is the "glory of the Celestial kingdom". This hearkens back again to those Christ saves on his right hand who all receive eternal life while the wicked are cast out with the devil and his angels. All of those Christ saves (everyone except the son's of perdition) receive eternal life. Here- 27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father; 28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28) In verse 5 we are told that glory is the Church of the Firstborn. During the millennium Christ will instruct the 144,000 to go out and ferret out all those to be saved to bring them to the Church of the Firstborn. This membership are Christ's sheep- those he saves. One must be born again through Christ in order to be saved. Consequently, those who do so become members of the Church of the Firstborn.- 22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 93:22) So, with this preface in mind (and you are free to question this analysis) let's get started.

We do have modern scriptures that state Adam and Eve we're literal and we're the first humans.

Your beliefs are rooted entirely in secularism. You do know that, correct?

Huh...what are you smoking?

I think the saddest stories I hear from LDS is when they start talking Adam and Eve as allegorical fictional characters. What a travesty!

Yeah, so we have facial hair, it grows there, what's the big deal? Another cultural (non doctrine) item that in time will pass.

And one who defames others let's not forget.

I'm not teaching that at all, actually the opposite. This is what I teach-in the gospel of Jesus Christ "26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all. 27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father; 28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Doesn't sound like all will be saved, just the righteous, that's what I teach. And what do the saved all receive? Eternal life. That's the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In the temple prep manual it says- "Explain that in the temple, we learn more about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and we are able to grow closer to Them. We learn about Their plan for us, which is referred to in the scriptures by various titles, such as the plan of redemption or plan of salvation." "In the Temple We Are Taught the Plan of Salvation Explain that as part of the temple endowment, the plan of salvation is taught" "Emphasize that the temple provides us with knowledge about this plan, knowledge that brings great blessings into our lives." And so I ask, if the gospel is revealed line upon line, precept upon precept, and the temple endowment thus represents the most up to date definitions we have on the plan of salvation, why is it that in that plan, in the temple, the only destination for us is the Celestial kingdom? Don't you find it interesting that the specific wording, over and over again, in the endowment shows a progression through the kingdoms rather than assignment eternally to one of them? Is the temple endowment not the real plan of salvation?

So, how is one to decipher temple teachings which use the same wording to describe our earth as the Telestial kingdom/Telestial world? Is it not true the endowment is the "full" plan of salvation laid out? Certainly the "full" plan would expound upon the three kingdoms, right? So then, why is there only one place where salvation is granted in the "full" plan as taught in the temple?

Does the earth not abide a telestial glory- the glory of the Holy Ghost? At the beginning of the millennium it will be quickened to a higher glory as stated in scripture. The glory of the resurrected Jesus Christ. At the end of the millennium it will be quickened to a higher glory, even the presence of the Father. At that point it will be quickened to Celestial glory.

For the record, the telestial world room is common knowledge made to a person going through in a temple open house. I didn't see where Elder Holland said "represents". He specifically said we are in the telestial kingdom. So, I am no wrong.

Well, we did see changes just this week to some of the dialogue in the temple endowment.

Go back and read through this entire post. In fact I invite all to go back and read all the posts back and forth between us. You have attacked and defamed my character on no less than three separate accounts starting on the first page. The evidence speaks for itself. You have a record of this defamation against me over and over again. We all know what character you have.

I spent some time responding a few posts back. I thought we shared a lot in common. I thought perhaps we thought a lot the same. Did you even read my post talking about Joseph Smith and how he spoke about therungs of a ladder, ascending kingdoms, the endowment,etc?

I agree that it would be sad to see them go. I do think we could do a better job of figuring out assignments. That said, eventually I see the Lord doing away with a structured ministering assignment program.

Is this statement wrong- We live in the Telestial kingdom.

I'm only putting together what prophets have revealed. How is that in error? If I go to the temple prep class and they teach me that the endowment is the plan of salvation and then I go to the temple for my endowment and it explains there that we are now in the telestial kingdom and so I believe it am I in error?

I've been thinking a lot about this over the last few months. The new ministering assignments we have and how we envision it and ultimately how the Lord visions it interests me. I have long felt that ultimately, the Lord wants us to minister to all as we are moved upon by the Holy Ghost and as circumstance evolves. I have felt for a time that ministering assignments (and also the old home and visiting teaching,) seem somewhat forced and not genuine. It feels like I'm not really connected or connecting with my ministering assignments. In the church we are so gocused on numbers. And yet, I think the Lord sees things much different. As moved upon by both circumstance and the Holy Ghost I find I am spending more time ministering to others not in my ward. Even in my ward, those I spend more time ministering to are not my ministering assignments. Certainly the Lord would prompt the ministering brothers and sisters assigned and not me? I don't believe so. And it may be a case of seeing through a dark glass. It seems that ideally we would minister to those we live closest to, are more connected or aquainted with etc. It seems like it never fails in ward council when we are discussing a family or individual that someone besides the ministering brother or sister assigned to that family or person knows more about the situation. And I don't think it's a fault of a poor ministering assignment program so much as it just isn't how the Lord views ministering and moves upon others to minister to others. I remember having a dream right after a ward boundary change and thinking that "well, these families are in another's stewardship now". And in the dream I was shown that just because they are not within the ward boundaries doesn't mean my stewardship over them is released for that is not how the Lord views things. I brushed it off and went about my business. Since then the Lord has made manifest on no less than three separate occasions that my stewardship with them remains. I have helped them fix a car, get a job, give blessings too, etc. In fact, I know the ministering brother assigned to be partners with them and they came to us for some knowledge and advice. In the family business we run we do a lot of service for others and I find it interesting that almost entirely the services we provide others doesn't come from a ministering assignment. I'm not saying that our ministering program isn't inspired by the Lord, I'm suggesting that the Lord reveals unto us ministering opportunities and we somehow get caught up in not seeing those as important as our ministering assignments. We tend to look at numbers (and thankfully the new ministering program isn't numbers driven like the old) instead of the bigger picture. I think we could do a lot better in making ministering assignments also. We tend to view ward boundaries as those within our stewardship and those in our ministering assignments or callings strictly as our stewardship. The Lord however views things very differently. He doesn't have ward boundaries in mind so much, neither does he have ministering assignments in mind so much. As we view the Lord's workings we see all too often that boundaries and assignments don't apply so much in ministering to others. Perhaps in time we will move beyond "assignments" and "boundaries" in carrying out the Lord's work. It's kind of analogous to living the lower letter of the law such as the Law of Moses rather than living the intent of the law.

It's defamation when it's not true and I can state factually you defamed my character. You do that a lot with me and frankly I'm kind of tired of it. It's not becoming of a disciple of Christ to constantly attack and defame others.

And BTW, TFP, aren't you the one who wanted to stay on topic? Just saying...