Rob Osborn

We as men grade and seean as what has been. God grades and sees men as what we may become.

Let me quote from Jefferey R. Holland on what he speaks in part about the laborers in the vineyard- "My beloved brothers and sisters, to those of you who have been blessed by the gospel for many years because you were fortunate enough to find it early, to those of you who have come to the gospel by stages and phases later, and to those of you—members and not yet members—who may still be hanging back, to each of you, one and all, I testify of the renewing power of God’s love and the miracle of His grace. His concern is for the faith at which you finally arrive, not the hour of the day in which you got there."

Justice always will be met. Everyone will find, in the end, the same obedience is required for salvation.

But, we only gain salvation after all we can do. We still are imperfect without the atonement. The parable of the laborers shows that the reward of salvation from hell and saved is the same regardless of when one comes to repentance just as long as they repent. In the end they still all end up the same type of being.

I guess my point is- sure, one may be further on the path than another in the destination of perfection and eternal life but it's most important to get on the path. Being on the path leads to the same destination. In the end, once everyone arrives, all will have worked the same laws and obedience as another, it just may take some longer. The focus though is on the end result. If the result is the same, perhaps it doesn't matter so much on if one thinks he's working harder than another. The prodigal son testifies of this and also cautions on being prideful thinking one deserves more cause they were obedient longer.

It depends upon what reward or purpose we are speaking of. The laborers in the vineyard shows this. Was not their pay the same when one worked longer than the other in the Lord's vineyard?

Definitely an advantage in a sense. But, on an individual basis, seeking the same destination, is there not just one gate? Is there not but one path? And if a path, to one destination?

I think we speak of many of the same great truths. However, I'm curious, what do you think is meant by those "who are of a Celestial spirit" means? I have my own drawn out belief here but I want to hear what you think it means.

All good points. The 1/3 bit is a topic all by itself and would be fun to discuss. I think the main point is that in the end all those Christ saves are all part of his one fold. They have all come in by the same gate and followed the same path. They all end up alike at harvest. All their saving ordinances and covenants are in order and obedience has been shown. It is only this type of person that can be saved. We should be viewing the parable of the wheat and tares as all of the wheat are "all" those Christ saves from perdition. There isn't some other group. There is only one shepherd and only one fold- only one kingdom and it is Christ's and Christ is Father's. All the saved become sons and daughters and heirs to all that God has.

That's what we have been doing, discussing. I'm certainly up to other possiblities. It's interesting though that I can point something out and others don't see it and instead read something, completely not in the text, and say I'm wrong. For example, I explained earlier that in the parable of the wheat and the tares the "garners" are temples. I was told I was wrong. And so I go and get scriptures and words of prophets to support this meaning and in the end people just assume I'm a bafoon. As of yet, 5 pages later, I don't think anyone really believes there are just wheat or tares in the world. It's like they don't really believe Jesus. Have you ever seen the video of the invisible gorrilla http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html We get so fixated on something we don't see something plain as day right in front of us and adamantly deny it. This is one of those things. I honestly think we get so fixated on things we can't see what simple thing is really going on. In the parable it really is true that there are only wheat and tares. But, because of our beliefs in general we don't see it. We keep insisting there is another group or another meaning. I'm not kidding when I say I have been studying this parable quite diligently for nigh on to 20 years. For the longest time I couldn't see the gorilla. Then one day there it was and everything changed. It all fit in and made sense. And, I know I'm right. Now I am working on finding out how this all fits in together. My reference to people not understanding baptism and it's effects is spot on. But,bits sad that some take it so lightly and make fun of it to me that I'm just not willing to share. So, I hoped to help someone with that "aha!" Moment too but I'm afraid the window shut. I don't take these things lightly. I'm a very serious gospel thinker. I spend most of my waking day contemplating the details. I'm willing to share my knowledge and wisdom, even listen to others input and valuable knowledge and wisdom. Do you understand where I am coming from?

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12:11)

This thread reminds me of this verse- 6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (Matthew 7:6)

And maybe I wont

I will start a new thread.

One of the frustrating aspects is we tend to nitpick over frivolous things as a means to mock or degrade others. Anyone who knows me and my thinking knows the context I was using. So, it frustrates me when you chime in as a means to mock. It's childish, we need to get over such things if we are ever going to understand the gospel. I have many things I don't know much about, I know my weaknesses. What I do know is the gospel principles pretty good. I'm sorry if that troubles people.

You would be surprised.

In the context of what I was saying, baptism is an essential requirement for salvation. That is an unchangebale principle. If you want to disagree go ahead, it's your choice. I made a point, if you disagree that certain foundational principles of the gospel cannot change, that's your choice.

And I might add, if people really understood baptism and what it means we wouldn't even debating this subject, everyone would agree with Christ's gospel.

Really? Nitpicking. Let me rephrase- every accountable person needs baptism to enter the kingdom of heaven.

How so? I think I understand the English language and how words and context is used. Perhaps I am wrong. Could you show me where I'm wrong on every point?

We can, or should, be able to establish principles of truth of Christ's doctrine from the scriptures. The rest of the gospel is built upon and based on those fundamental principles. Those fundamental truths do not nor cannot be changed. For instance, baptism is a requirement to enter the kingdom of heaven. That's a fundamental true principle. Any doctrine that tries to say otherwise is a false doctrine.

Verse 30 is in the context of his judgments against the wicked previously spoken of in the previous verses. In verse 43 the part- "he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life" is in the context of those immediately mentioned- "even as many as would believe". Thats what it means. There is no other possibility spoken of here. The believers go into immortality and eternal life. The disbelievers into eternal damnation.

We are all imperfect. I too have espoused false doctrines, so too has just about every other member. It's human nature. We just don't have all the truth. We are still in process of learning, and that includes the church. Even our most holy things- the temple, keeps modifying it's processes, wording, etc.

I provide witnesses in a prophet and the temple. You cant understand that. Its fine, lets move on.

So, why are they in telestial glory when Christ cant save the unrepentant?