Rob Osborn

Well, it's certainly a Hollywoodesque type of story but our scriptures testify otherwise that it really was over a small sum of money and his motivations were purely evil.

This leads to the erroneous idea that only trained scholars can know and if you don't have a degree you don't know what you are talking about.

I agree, there is only one Cumorah. I think the hard part for most scholars who study this are the distance issues as New York is a long ways away from meso-america. It took Mormon some 3-4 years to get his people moved and gathered to Cumorah. Personally I find no distance in the Americas unreasonable given such a long time. We know that trade in the Americas in ancient times spanned thousands of miles.

And it's understandable. The leading research for both the meso-america and heartland models are so flawed in my opinion that it is good that the church is distancing itself from these theories.

I think it Noble and charitable even that in our hearts we have a love of people, even for the likes of Judas. However, with so much testimony from scripture that Judas is a son of perdition I think it wise on our part to accept it at that and realize the importance of not selling away our salvation. We hear of horrific stories in our day of people who secretly plot and hire hitmen to kill their spouses for money and yet even this pales in comparison to the betrayal of Judas with the Savior of mankind. This wasn't something that developed overnight. He knew who Christ was, what his mission was, and for gain decided that money was more important than the Savior's love. He got his reward just as did Lucifer, now they are both in the same miserable boat. And don't think Judas changed, he is as wicked as they come. This is why it is written it had been better had he never been born.

Good grief, just stating my opinion, for crying out loud!

Several points- Judas is a son of perdition. He has no forgiveness. Hate to bring it up but...we do progress from telestial to terrestrial to Celestial.

You totally missed my initial point. I don't feel like debating anything with you right now. Attitudes not right.

I never claimed any revelations that goes against whats been revealed. Im just connecting dots on what already has been revealed. Anyways, I do find it interesting that when I can speak with people with my voice its very convincing. My whole family was skeptical, they aren't so much anymore. They too see the logic of what I say.There is power in our voices versus typing on forums!

Maybe if I could actually speak, instead of type with one finger, many more would be convinced of my words concerning heaven and hell. 😊

I'm curious as to how you hash out these details, especially the part about agency and the logic of the plan of salvation. I'm not saying you are wrong, just never heard this before and I'm curious.

I think our status changes when each of us fall in mortality, not that it changed for everyone when Adam fell.

My studies so far has led me to believe that Cumorah is in New York.

I am pretty much in agreement here with you. I still think we misunderstandings each other's argument. I am saying that the way in which the computer is assembled- in it's functioning capability, does not make it intelligent in the definition of thinking, being self aware, having emotions and feelings, etc.

It sounds okay except I tend to think that we were still with the Father until we each come to earth.

I disagree with your assumptions you've made about me. The type of intelligence in living things (including fetuses and living cells) is not the same thing as in a computer circuit board.

We may be talking about different things. I am speaking of intelligence in the capacity of being self aware, able to reason and have and experience emotions and feelings, in the ability to use these parameters in making decisions and coming up with new and novel information.

Much of the doctrine from the Book of Mormon was written by their prophets before Christ had came to the earth and was crucified, resurrected, and then opened the prison doors. As such, they also didn't have the doctrine revealed to them concerning the work for the dead. They assumed that the point of no return was death. Modern revelation teaches us otherwise. As taught in section 138 and in the PoGP, repentance and change is extended into the spirit world coupled with temple proxy work.

So, under your reasoning, because our brain is so similar to a computer they must be intelligent. So then, why do I have intelligence budding out like crazy and the computer has zilch? Even if we paired up all the supercomputers in the world they still have zero intelligence. So, perhaps our brains and computers aren't really alike at all. And we haven't even factored in what makes our brains intelligent- the spirit. I personally believe that real intelligence is in the spirit and the brain acts more like the sensory machine part. If this is true, we have no way to even view what intelligence even looks like. Just because we can make a circuit board of electric switches that we can program to follow input and switch accordingly doesn't make it intelligent. In more simplistic terms, a steam engine isn't intelligent even though we can get it to run on it's own.

Nonsense. If it were true that true intelligence can be made from computer circuit boards we would see it. We dont even see the very slightest hint that there is intelligence in circuit boards. C'mon, you really think that if we just throw enough electric switches together that it turns into intelligence?

Of course sins can be repented of in the spirit world. Otherwise this scripture makes no sense- 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the aacceptable day of the Lord and proclaim bliberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would crepentof their sins and receive the gospel.

Only the sons of perdition will have to suffer like Christ did. The atonement covers all those he saves. Some may suffer in a small degree what Christ suffered but only those who are not forgiven and are cast out will suffer as did Christ. In the end its about who one becomes. And in order to be saved they must follow Christ in repenting of their sins, having faith in Jesus Christ and then follow him in his other commands which include the covenants of the temple. Verse 109 should be a clue to us that he is seeing a vision of our own world. The inhabitants are as innumerable as the sands upon the seashore. I wouldnt fain to believe that this innumerable mass is some wicked group destined to spend the millennium in hell. It just doesnt make sense. I think instead he isnt sure what he is seeing and in reality he is seeing our own world now and all of the inhabitants who are heirs to salvation. Look at the similarities- 30 aAbraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose bloins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the cstars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them. We are speaking of the majority of the workds inhabitants.

It's not possible to overcome all sins in this life. No one achieves perfection in their mortal life besides Christ.

Well, so far, there's absolutely no proof that adding more sophistication to computers have led to them becoming truly intelligent. Just adding more switching, faster processing power, and more programming hasn't led to them becoming intelligent. All it truly shows is that true intelligence and the processes taking place in a computer are completely different things.

Apples and oranges. We may, and probably will, make the greatest most advanced computers able to mimick the actions of humans. But, as always will be the case, they will never do what we are capable of doing. They will never truly think or reason or have emotions. They will never understand or be self aware or care. They will always be just a machine.