Rob Osborn

Damned/damnation is always in the context of being condemned to hell. Lesser and greater damnation refers to lesser or greater sentences to hell.

To be "fallen" is usually in context to our spiritual nature or being and denotes a turn towrads wickedness. Being "damned" means to be sentenced to hell.

It's not judging when we make a statement of what the scriptures have already stated. According to scripture the judgment by God is that he is a son of perdition. Now, perhaps one can believe the scriptures are in error, that's fine, but restating what the Lord has already said is not judging, it's "acknowledgement".

I'm not the one eternally judging. God already did that, I'm just acknowledging that judgment. And what is the judgment? That Judas is a son of perdition. Whom am I to say this isn't so? Many in here seem to not acknowledge God's judgment here he has already made.

The great lakes area is a rich ore geology. It is now becoming better understood that the ancient miners in this vast area mined and traded the ore for thousands of miles using the main rivers and waterways as a means of distribution. In fact, the ancient Mining was so vast that it still baffles scientists to this day. Not too long ago we forced the American Indians to relocate. Now known as the famous "Trail of Tears" they were forced some 1,200 miles. And, we aren't speaking of the entire nation of them in their possible extermination, but rather just a relocation to move them out of the way. We have too hard of a time with distances in the Book of Mormon because we discount the vastness of their population and scope of their empires.

The scriptures carry the weight, not an opinion, be it me or a prophet, it's the same. The scriptures testify of two things- 1. The requirements to become a son of perdition. 2. That Judas is a son of perdition. Thus we can safely judge that Judas very much indeed meet the requirements to become what he in fact is.

If we put it into the context of a hemispheric model it makes plausible sense. Over the course of some 30-40 years the Nephites had been pushed several thousand miles already- from the southern parts of the land southward into and through the narrow neck and from there northward into the land northward. Cumorah was a shipping and ore rich stronghold of the Nephites. What's a few thousand more Miles when they have already been forced a greater distance already?

I do find it of high interest that many of the ancient mounds and ancient fortifications found in New York were primarily for a defensive purpose. I don't see great distances as a hard thing. In South America they had ancient roads that spread for thousands of miles and they were all controlled by the same empire. Travel for them in ancient times over great distances was a normal thing. That said, I find it highly plausible that the BoM events could have taken place on both the North and South American continents.

If we could just realize in the context of this "third heaven" that we are in the first heaven now it would make more sense.

This is the part I cant fathom- how can someone believe an apostle to walk day to day in Christs presence for a very long time, knowing the love they have for them, and then deny it and altogether turn from that be forgiven? We arent speaking of just being a special witness like our modern prophets but rather more- to be in his continual presence and in company of angels and then deny it. Judas is lost, forever lost. Its a lesson to us to not deny Christ and altogether turn from it once his love has made itself manifest in our hearts. The ramifications are dire.

And yet Lehi took his family to the other side of the globe...

And I'm glad the seed I soweth is in good ground...

Well then continue to be close minded. Good day (BTW, you missed the point)

I agree as long as we see that until we fall in mortality we aren't damned.

Not really.

We can theorize every possible thing under the stars. The reality is that Judas betrayed the Christ and for that became a son of perdition.

Judas went to the chief priests and captains how he might betray the Savior into their hands. The deal was made with the promise of money. Thus, the act of betrayal was motivated by money. Of course later on his conscious kicked in but it was too late. That is one result of choosing the bad over the good, having a dread feeling. It's one reason why Satan is miserable. But, being miserable doesn't mean one is truly remorseful or repentant, it's just one of the effects.

Did you read the scriptures in the link?

I think it's a well established fact that the reasoning of going back to get the Brass plates was to not only preserve their language but to preserve their knowledge of God and the creation and the plan of salvation, of the which without, they would have become just like the Mulekites. The scriptures were what binded the people together, generation after generation, it was the critical piece.

For one thing, we don't fall by coming to earth. "Falling" denotes a spiritual loss. Our Individual fall is based upon our own sins not Adam. As such, we don't fall spiritually because of Adam but rather because of our own sins. 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; 44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not; 45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:43-45) It isn't scripturally accurate to say all of God's spirit children fell when Adam fell. We have no record that states the spirit children of God are kept away from him because Adam fell.

Another angle- the critical part in the war in heaven was good vs. evil. The good side championed Christ as deliverer from sin thus preserving agency. The bad side was deceptive and tried to scheme how to overthrow God and have wickedness reign instead. The result of that though is loss of agency not the actual overthrow of the kingdom.

Maybe so

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/judas-iscariot?lang=eng

Well, there is scriptural backing for our own individual falls.

I think what it really comes down to is if we really accept the testimonies of scripture or not. If we accept the scriptures then we know Judas is a son of perdition. If we don't accept them then yeah- we can just theorize.