Rob Osborn

They should rejoice because of life eternal and peace. Is that not a reward?

Well, that theory is debatebale. Leaving out the part about blood in the "Resurrection" to me is kind of proof that the church is trying to get away from some of the theories of the past of which have no scriptural foundation.

Also of note, the old Bible dictionary entry on "Resurrection" states in part- "Others had been brought back from death, but were restored to mortality (Mark 5: 22-43; Luke 7: 11-17; John 11: 1-45), whereas a resurrection means to become immortal, without blood, yet with a body of flesh and bone.” The new entry- “Others had been brought back from death but were restored to mortality (Mark 5:22–43; Luke 7:11–17; John 11:1–45), whereas a resurrection means to become immortal, with a body of flesh and bone.” Again, why the omitted part about "without blood"? Could it be it is merely opinion? Just saying...

I find it interesting that the old Bible dictionary entry on "fall of Adam and Eve" included the words "Before the fall, Adam and Eve had physical bodies but no blood...With the eating of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, blood formed in their bodies, and death became a part of life". In the new edition this part is ommitted and no mention of blood is made. Revisions to the Bible dictionary was to remove various opinions that may not be correct doctrine. Just saying...

I'm correct the whole way through. The two scriptures I posted shows exactly how I understand. Do you enjoy trolling me?

I know what hedonism is. I think you are missing the point. I will try one more time. A quick question- why aren't you going to go and turn the stove on and wait till it gets red hot and then place your hand directly on it for 3 seconds?

Or perhaps you reject this- 23 But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come. (D&C 59:23)

Hum...maybe we still aren't on the same page understanding each other. Do you thus deny this philosophy- 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. (2 Nephi 2:25)

Every action we consciously make we are already looking at the possible outcomes, dangers, rewards, etc. For example, say we we're to go hiking on a cliff edge that had drop offs of thousands of feet. We stay away from the deges as much as possible, we are extra cautious. But why? Because we are motivated by the increased chance of incurring serious injury or death. Perhaps it's just the fear, but the fact remains, we are motivated to take the safest precautions for fear of injury, pain, etc. But, in the same token, we are also rewarded with going through with it because it's exhilarating, it's exciting, it's accomplishing something hard, etc. That motivates us. That reward. Take another example- for me I trying to lose weight and get in better shape. I've lost 40 pounds. Why did I do it though? Was there a reward I was looking forward to? You bet. I want more energy, I want to live longer, I want to have better sleep, do away with heartburn, etc. I'm am reaping some of the rewards now. And so it is with following Christ. The reward for choosing the right is peace in this life and peace in the life to come. I'm not sure about you but I also experienced to some degree the anguish that Alma and the Son's of Mosiah went through of being cast off forever. Suffered many terrifying nights overcoming it/suffering through it. I don't really think people understand what hell is like, the horrifying anguish of it. But, having experienced it I have a very great appreciation for peace now- that companionship of the Spirit. I love that feeling of the sweet spirit of the Lord. I want others to experience and feel it to. That's a great reward. Whether we want to keep it in view or not, our motivation in choosing the right is finding peace in Christ for ourselves and others. We don't do things in name only without feeling. We always try to see the possible outcomes that may result from an action. And it is that outcome or process that motivates us. It's just our nature. We love others because the reward is giving peace to another and through that we gain extra peace ourselves.

I don't think you understand. Give me a bit to post because I think you will agree with me

I don't think we understand each other. I think we are mostly saying the same thing, just from different angles.

I don't speak down to others. I'm frankly sick of Wade's shenanigans.

You know what? Discussions with you are fruitless. You are a condescending immature individual.

But "love" is the reward, that's my point. We're all motivated by something

So, I've often wondered, is there an end of suffering for the sons of perdition? It may appear the door is open for that possibility.

I would put forth the condition of the path again here as I don't believe it's possible once one has entered the path towards eternal life to have a different outcome other than eternal life itself. There won't be miserably saved souls. Why, because eventually they all shall be gods and shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. 18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. (Proverbs 4:18) 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matthew 13:43)

Whether we like to admit it or not we must be motivated by outcomes in order to act. For instance- I go to work everyday and I'm motivated by several rewards. They are- finishing the project at hand, recognition by the customer and others for a job well done, money, being busy and staying productive, learning, serving others, health, etc, etc. There's also the flip side that motivates me if I don't do the work, they may be- not finishing the project, unhappy boss and customers, not getting paid or possibly fired, becoming lazy, bad health, not serving others, etc, etc. In my job we are always looking for ways to be motivated and productive. Rewards and punishments always come into play. It's not that we don't like to work it's just that we must use tools of rewards or punishment to keep things in order. We can't just say- "ahh, I'll get to that job one of these days, no big hurry, let's go fishing instead". No, there has to be goals and goals need to be looked at in the light of accomplishing a result. For God, his goal or reward is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. That's what motivates him, it is a reward to help others and bring about happiness. On the other hand, with Satan and others who follow him it's about being motivated by becoming more powerful and feared, being able to have more power over the hearts of others. The difference is however, there is no real reward for them, just greater depths of misery. But that's how evil is when it gets at that low level- they somehow glory in misery and making others miserable. It gets to a point where they truly can't see how to find joy anymore, everything they do just worsens things. But yet, they won't stop either because they love that dark power.

I agree that they are different. Agency is "the power of operation", it is "the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power". When viewed like this it helps with understanding. What is Satan trying to do? He seeks to destroy our God given ability to be in a state where we are acting and exerting power and authority. He succeeds in this when he tempts us and leads us into sin. Sin captivates the soul, chains it down. This is what is meant by Satan leading men into spiritual captivity and the "chains of hell". Satan's snare is the very chains of hell. It's only then that Satan has "power" over us and we lose our ability to act and exert our own power and authority. 13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. (2 Nephi 1:13) 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12:11)

Whom in the scriptures, by name, do you think is a son of perdition?

Well, we know Cain is, so too is Judas. That's two

It really boils down to simple logic. It's obvious that Christ's resurrected body is one of flesh and bone. So, obviously the 1st Corinthians verse isn't meant to convey that literal "flesh" won't be found on resurrected bodies but rather he is speaking of the worldly nature of the natural fallen man in his corruptible sins. The life of immortality is in Christ's flesh and blood.

I'm chalking it up on faulty reasoning, simple misunderstandings. 1st Corinthians 15:50 isn't meant to convey the physical properties of flesh or blood but rather the worldly nature's of the flesh and the blood spilt over those carnal sins. Thus, the "worldly" man full of sin cannot enter heaven.

Who's to say we won't have blood?

I find it interesting that we know there are son's of perdition and yet to hear conversations in here it appears, in some people's eyes, it's impossible for anyone to become such! I think these same people are of the belief that there isn't a single identifiable son of perdition!

There isn't another reasonable view in my opinion. Pretty much the whole Christian (including LDS) world views chapter 17 of John to be Jesus praying in behalf of his disciples. And when you read the whole chapter there really isn't another alternative, it's really quite sound that is what is taking place. As such, Jesus lost none of the other disciples, just the one- Judas Iscariot. There isn't really any other possible meaning here. If one interprets it wrong here they do so without understanding the whole chapter in how Jesus is praying for his disciples that after he is gone they can be strong and united and that through them those who hear their words will believe. To not leave any doubt, the Book of Mormon states in this verse- 32 But behold, it sorroweth me because of the fourth generation from this generation, for they are led away captive by him even as was the son of perdition; for they will sell me for silver and for gold, and for that which moth doth corrupt and which thieves can break through and steal. And in that day will I visit them, even in turning their works upon their own heads. (3 Nephi 27:32) There is no doubt that this is in direct reference to Judas Iscariot. I don't really see how it's possible that people get this wrong or a different understanding.