Rob Osborn

I've written papers on each of those separate verses. I could go on for days...literally. I was more inclined to see what you thought and go from there.

Humm...well enough, I respect your opinion. I disagree but who's to know, right?

Just throw it out there, you may be surprised by my answer

Humm...kind of difficult as it speaks of different groups.

What about those who reject the law, die young and then accept in the spirit world vs. those who reject it their whole lives then, nearing death in old age, accept? The logic of accepting in this life falls apart under closer examination. Thus, those who die without law are no different than those who reject it ehere both then accept it in the spirit world- it being about who we become, not where we been.

Binary heaven and hell with differing glories within heaven.

I hear you. Under my own personal beliefs he will most likely accept the gospel and when he does he will be put on the same path as all the rest of the saved to inherit all that the Father hath.

Okay, so do you think they (the lost tribes) lived and died for the most part without law?

So, do you think that those spoken of in D&C 45:54- "they that knew no law" are the same as those spoken of in section 76:72 "they who died without law"?

I think we are basically in agreement here. It took a bit but I think we have arrived. So, do you believe that the heathen nations who have died, died without law?

But the verse quoted is speaking of "heathen Nations". I think we can ascertain what and who this is and pertains to. In the rest of Christianity the "heathen Nations" were those Nations, entire populations of society who were or are strangers to revealed Christianity/religion and thus- knew not the law.

Okay, just so we are on the same page then- you believe that someone who "knew no law" is someone who knows of the prophets and was aware of the prophet teachings but chose not to be a part of them because they received no spiritual witness?

Let's cut to the chase scene- who specifically do you think are those who knew no law?

Okay, so, another example- the son's of Mosiah going to preach the gospel to those who were unaware or ignorant of the law.

Expound please.

Humm...I can see what you are saying but not sure it can apply. In order to be within the law or know the law all one has to do is have it preached and explained to them. It's not possible that one can remain outside the law or die without law once it is preached to them and understood by them. If it is preached to them and they choose to reject it they do so in transgression. Transgression can only come by being within the bounds of the law.

I'm curious- how is it possible that someone can know the law of the Lord and yet live "without the law"? To me, personally, it's not possible to be outside of the law and it's jurisdiction- the justice aspect, if one has it given to them. They would fall within the justice of the law. This is what ancient Book of Mormon prophets meant when they preached unto the wicked so that their sins would be answered on their heads and not the prophets.

That's fine, but realize this-, you wanted to change the topic, delve off on a tangent, but then when it came to the simple nuts and bolts decide you don't really want a discussion. Not sure if you what your angle is but please don't change the topic again and expect to have dialogue if it's only going to be one sided. Regardless, the reason I asked you that question is because no one can satisfactorily answer it. You see, it's not logical that a terrestrial and telestial heir would be resurrected in the resurrection unto damnation to be delivered to the devil and yet on the other hand only Celestial heirs come forth in the resurrection unto eternal life. Many thus will intentionally change the meaning of the scriptures to account for this. There is no bait here, just the truth. People just aren't willing to accept the truth as it stands.

I am of the strong belief that you can't provide what I ask for. That's fine, good day.

I'm not sure why you choose to speak the way you do with me, whatever. Could you perhaps quote certain sentences from the articles that prove your position?

Please just answer the question I put forth. I gave you the courtesy of answering the questions you asked for. So please be respectful and answer mine. I don't mean any hard will, I'm just curious what your personal belief is in regards to who you think is part of the resurrection of life/just and who is part of the resurrection of damnation/unjust.

I read the articles. They aren't suggesting what you are putting forth. I'm not sure how you are coming to the conclusions you make because the law of sacrifice is not a mystery nor does it require a "higher understanding". I understand the law of sacrifice quite well, in fact, I think most primary children understand it quite well. It's not a mystery kept only for some elite intellect. Christ doesn't keep his paths, his ways complex and mysterious, but, men sure do have a way of making it seem complex and mysterious. I learned something very interesting about the law of sacrifice that I'd like to share with you. A few years ago, in the process of helping some neighbors with their vehicle who were poor and destitute there came a time when the mother needed a blessing. We, as a family and business had sacrificed time, effort and money into their car. The Lord taught me a valuable yet simple principle of the law of sacrifice. Instead of asking for a blessing upon ourselves, our business and families I prayed that the blessing that may have been afforded to us be passed back to them to receive that promise in the blessing we gave that mother. The law of sacrifice is to put forth love, even if it requires some loss, or perceived loss, on our part but in doing so we gain the love and compassion required of the process. As such, asking the Father to pour out a blessing upon that head of which was sacrificed for brings the blessings upon that individual because it cannot be denied. The lesson was profound because in essence it is the same with Christ, he suffered and died for each one of us individually. Thus, when he asks the Father to pardon us, or give us the blessing, the Father cannot deny the Son because he cannot deny the sacrifice. And so it is with us also according to eternal principle and law- when we sacrifice for another and suffer some loss on our part and ask the blessing to fall instead upon those we sacrificed for the Father cannot deny it because to do so would be to deny the sacrifice of the broken heart and contriteness of the one asking.

I did directly answer each of your three questions. A follow up set of questions- Which resurrection do you believe the Celestial, terrestrial, and telestial receive? The resurrection of life or the resurrection of damnation?

There's really a lot going on in section 76. It was given in response to the verse- John 5:29 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Of which was given to them, meaning the same thing, using synonyms- 17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust Because John 5:29 is the same as that seen in the Book of Mormon, for instance- 11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation- (Mosiah 16:11) 5 If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began. (3rd Nephi 26:5) Thus we know that John 5:29 and D&C 76:17 are synonymous, they mean the same exact thing, just worded differently. Thus the term "resurrection of life" is synonymous with "resurrection of the just" just as the phrase "resurrection of damnation" is synonymous with the phrase "resurrection of the unjust". And, because the Book of Mormon extrapolates what damnation means- "being delivered up to the devil" we thus can know that only the just, or those resurrected unto eternal life are saved from the devil which is damnation-. That much must be understood, otherwise it's not possible to understand section 76. So then to answer your questions- 1."Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the three degrees of glory mentioned in D&C 76 are "after the judgement"? I believe Joseph received a vision showing the continued duration of man's progress so that he could come forth in the resurrection of eternal life. It's the subtle way the angel or Spirit is showing Joseph how it's not possible to be saved from hell if one doesn't come forth in the resurrection unto eternal life, or in other words- the resurrection of the just. "Just" because they are "justified" in and through Christ of the complete forgiveness of sin and justified unto receiving eternal life. 2. "Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that people are "saved" and are "heirs of salvation", and will bow their knees post-judgement (post resurrection) in the telestial, and terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms? In other words, do you understand that there are multiple conotations of the word "saved" and "salvation"? "Saved" and "salvation" only mean one thing in discussions on the plan of salvation. Being "saved" means to be saved from the consequences of sin which would otherwise confine him or her to the eternal hell. Salvation means to be saved physically and spiritually unto eternal life. The two terms have no other meaning in scripture when the plan of salvation is discussed. 3. "Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are the "future life" (not to be confused with the symolism of this current life), and "destiny," and "completion" for some people, and that they will never see the celestial kingdom of God?" I can't see where this life or place we currently are in is a "symbol" for the telestial kingdom when in fact we are told we are in the very kingdom itself. If we know that we are not yet completed now we can extrapolate that the telestial kingdom is not a final destination but rather the means to the destination.

You always seem to shroud this knowledge you have to some "higher understanding". I'm not necessarily calling your bluff but rather asking for some real principle founded doctrine. Perhaps you could link a talk by a modern prophet that speaks on this matter, or perhaps a manual?