Rob Osborn

Humm...not really. There's nothing to interpret. Jesus states quite factually that Judas is a son of perdition. So, I see it like this- one can dismiss this on the basis that Jesus either lied or the account is wholly incorrect. I'm not quite understanding how people get something like this so far off the rails when it's very simple and straightforward. Honestly, in John 17:12 do people really not interpret that Jesus is speaking about Judas as a son of perdition?

My bias is with the scriptures. I trust the testimony and witness of the Holy Ghost. I think one thing that hurts us as a general body of the church is that we have to go to a separate source for clarification in regards to the scriptures. Are we not capable of searching it out on our own?

You are without sound understanding. The scriptures state Judas is a son of perdition. The scriptures teach that son's of perdition are unredeemable in eternity. Jesus said Judas is lost. It's connecting the simple dots and acknowledgement of the facts. That's not judging.

Sure there is reference to he will save all except son's of perdition. However, in Matthew 17 it is generally understood that Jesus is praying for and in hehalf of his disciples. There are many son's of perdition.

It's interesting that everything you just posted is what I been championing. Somehow there's a disconnect...

Look, we shouldn't have to interpret scripture through the lens of the apostles various opinions. Their opinions are no different than you or I, it carries the same weight.

You have a bizarre definition of what it means to judge someone vs. acknowledge their condition. I'm acknowledging that he is a son of perdition and that the atonement doesn't cover him and therefore he is lost. This is exactly what the scriptures state. The judgment has already been passed on him by God. I'm just acknowledging those judgments. That's not the definition of judging.

We don't need an apostle to tell us when we have the testimony of the scriptures before us. The scriptures carry the weight.

There's nothing to interpret. Jesus calls him a son of perdition. There isn't no personal interpretation to be had. It's cut and dried, plain and simple- Judas is a son of perdition and sons of perdition are lost just as Christ said he is lost and won't be saved.

I would disagree to a degree. It's impossible to live a Celestial life without having a fulness of joy. That is only obtained when the spirit and body are inseparably connected after resurrection.

Well, we are told that all those Christ saves are forgiven of all their sins through repentance. Speaking of desire at this point, if someone is completely forgiven because of repentance from all sin there is nothing left but godly desire.

Sure. No man is forced into heaven. If one seeks to remain unrepentant then they will be cast out with the devil and his angels too.

I agree with the caveat that included in this group are those who commit the unpardonable sin.

Oh, sorry then

So, do you think it's impossible for someone to decide to be evil and follow Satan in this life with their whole heart, to become a son of perdition? Like no matter how wicked, no matter how evil they are, wanting no part of what's good, to become a son of perdition?

Well, certainly opinion. Tell me- the third host of heaven who followed Satan and became son's of perdition, were they all high ranking authorities in heaven?

"Greater damnation" as found in the book of Matthew refers to a longer stint in the temporary hell and possibly even an eternal duration depending on the severity. There is always a penalty to justice so that mercy and justice is perfectly balanced out. It's part of the repentance, forgiveness and restitution process. It would be unjust if a serial rapist is sentenced to spirit prison after death for the same duration as a common thief. The serial rapist is of course going to receive the greater damnation. Damnation is condemnation to hell. Hell is both a temporary holding place for the wicked until they repent and accept the gospel and pay their penalty and it is also an eternal place for those who choose ultimately to follow Satan. The term "eternal damnation" is this second hell because it is eternal in duration to those who get cast out after resurrection and judgment. Thus, ones damnation, whether it be temporary or permanent, is dependent upon the severity of sin and ones willingness or lack thereof to accept Christ and repent and show obedience to the laws and ordinances of his gospel. So, one can be damned at death and repent and still gain eternal life. In this case their damnation is a lesser damnation. Another can utterly refuse to repent and not gain salvation and be cast out into outer darkness. In this case they receive a greater damnation.

I'm not really concerned so much with how far they could or could not travel in a day so much as I am trying to state that great distances were not a great ordeal to the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. This is plainly manifest in viewing such things as the Inca road systems. They were attributed to the Inca but many believe the roads were made by previous cultures. Why would they have roads that traversed their nation thousands of miles in a North and South direction? Even in our modern day nation, before the train and automobile came around we had trails and roads that traversed our nation thousands of miles in East and West directions. Paramount to the conversation is that the extermination of the Nephites, who were an entire nation, were pushed out of their lands completely from a South to North movement over several decades by the Lamanite nation through brutal and Savage warfare. To put this in perspective let's look at the Inca nation and the geographical size of their nation. If one were to drive the Incan nation from the south and into lands to the north completely out of their boundaries it would be thousands of miles. Now, I believe that the Incan nation pailed in comparison to what the Nephite nation was. It's thus not hard to imagine it was in fact the Nephite nation who built the massive road systems in South America long before the Inca came to power and repaired the broken roads. During their last wars the Lamanites drove them out of South America and into Mexico and from there Mormon signed a temporary treaty so they could assemble in the North. It took 4 years to migrate and assemble his people there. This doesn't in any way seem improbable.

I think there is a big misconception over what it takes to become a son of perdition. It is helpful to know that the church actually views it differently than most believe- Sons of Perdition See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Hell; Unpardonable Sin The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35) (Guide to the Scriptures)

Hum...well your case isn't convincing at all that they weren't capable of moving thousands of miles.

You should mean "the eternal judgements of God continues", yes I agree, they do.

My point with the Inca was to show that distance wasn't a problem for the ancients. They moved quickly and efficiently. BTW, most of the early saints actually traveled from England and other regions of Europe, thousands of miles.

Son's of perdition are lost forever. Unless I am mistaken?

I'm not bullheaded. I've studied this extensively for twenty years. I've wrote countless pages and did many cross reference diagrams, charts, correlations, etc. I'm not wrong. I may come off as being bullheaded or arrogant but the matter is I have devoted a lot of time to know the truth. I love Elder Uchtdorf but there is some error in his statement. I don't think he quite understands the meaning of "eternal life" in scripture. Eternal life is synonymous with "salvation" and all of the saved receive eternal life. Eternal life is in the context of spiritual life or spiritual death in eternity. One either has one or the other as is stated here- 28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit; 29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom. Those who do not receive eternal life receive the eternal death which is the second spiritual death and comes to the devil and his angels.

And yet the Inca were able to travel and send messages hundreds of miles by foot in a single day... From the time the Nephites started getting pushed northward from the land southward under Mormons command until Cumorah was almost 60 years. Distance shouldnt be an issue at all.