Rob Osborn

I think it's sad that the only real reason people want to discount the hill in New York is because it's so far away from Mexico. And yet, ironically, distance isn't a problem for them on the other hand transporting the plates. There was enough evidence of antiquity in Western New York that the Smithsonian was started and official inquiry was made, book written, to attempt to explain all of the ancient remains of fortifications and bones and remains of ancient warfare in Western New York.

And then you have the endowment, given after section 76, which explains clearly the plan of salvation along with further light and knowledge but people are too caught up by the past and old dogma that they can't see the doctrine being explained. That's where we are as a general church body.

Who said they were entirely relocating?

It just seems like a stretch. Meso-america models have the Nephites never traveling more than a couple hundred miles in their battles. So, here we have Moroni, traveling only a couple hundred miles all his life in a small geographical area and then suddenly he travels thousands of miles away to deposit plates in some far off foreign land? My personal opinion is that he had access to the repository during his final writings. He was given only the small plates by Mormon. So how did he acquire or access the other records to abridge and add to the entrusted plates? Well, by being in close proximity to the repository. It's doubtful he took both records thousands of miles away either.

Well, not really. The way I read it is that he was close to the records in his last writings as he had access to the plates to abridge the Jaredite record. I find it improbable that after he finished his writings he then wandered some thousands of miles away to bury them.

I just think it's most probable that he buried the plates not far from the repository. He would have buried them separate for several reasons most of which for the safety and security of the prized record.

Just a little quibble but the Protestant view of heaven or hell is after resurrection and judgment. In fact, it's the very exact view of our Book of Mormon. And, if one closely understands the D&C, it's the same heaven or hell as taught there as well. Whether we like to admit it or not, our own LDS scriptures teach this same Protestant heaven or hell dichotomy.

Let's suppose for a minute that this "hill Cumorah", where the repository was, is somewhere in central America/ Mexico. Under this scenario Moroni continues and finishes the record oh his people and also abridges the record of the Jaredites. Not knowing how long his life is going to be preserved he then finishes it and then walks or transports them somehow a few thousand miles away and builds a stone or cement box in the hill in New York. That doesn't seem probable at all. Mormon entrusted Moroni only with the plates of Nephi. It is only after the great battle and Moroni having some space to write on that he gets the Jaredites record and abridges it. It sounds like to me that he is doing this in proximity to the repository where the rest of the plates are stored. But then he is still tasked with carrying them thousands of miles and burying them far far away. It just doesn't add up. If I were Moroni I wouldnt take the risk of carrying the precious plates around thousands of miles from the area I knew. It's most probable that he stayed close to the repository until he finished the record and sealed it up in the earth. What better place than to just stay put because everyone that tried to escape were hunted down and killed. The last place the Lamanites are going to look is the very battlefields of the great final war. The plates are heavy. They aren't something you are just gonna strap on your back and go on a great walkabout for thousands of miles.

Yes, precisely, the repository is in New York.

I have always seen it as problematic that Moroni would bury The plates thousands of miles from where he had the rest of the repository was. Certainly Moroni wouldn't risk his life to transport the only set of plates thousands of miles into a territory he had no idea about.

You are aware of the rules. Here they are as it pertains- "4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post." I was banned a week the last time you bickered with me. I'm not going there again. Good day.

If you ever get off your high horse and want to discuss I'm game. Until then, goodbye!

Here is the Messianic Psalm from 22 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. Read the comments here- http://www.monachos.net/conversation/topic/2860-eli-eli-lama-sabachthani-why-does-christ-quote-psalm-22-from-the-cross/ Christ descended below all things but yet never went into hell, nor suffered spiritual death, was never an actual sinner, etc. He felt the effects of the sin, that's what is meant.

Well, its impossible to suffer being spiritually dead if one is actually alive to the things of righteousness. Its an oxymoron to say one suffered spiritual death even though they were alive to the things of righteousness. Again, we shouldnt confuse and conflate side effect with the definition of the cause. Besides that, the words Christ exclaimed was reciting an old psalm that testified of his cause as the Savior of mankind. Had he really doubted and questioned God on the cross he would have sinned as lack of faith and doubt is sin.

There is a Ted Bundy thread in the general forums and it got me to thinking, Bundy is perhaps as close to what Satan is like. Ted Bundy stated late in his life that he felt no compassion for people, pretty much viewed humanity as a waste. I think Satan views life the same. Just like Satan, Bundy liked the control and possession of others.

Spiritual death is being dead to good works which results in the loss of the spirit. When we repent and are baptized we become born again in the spirit, born again into righteousness, alive again in the spirit.

So, logically then, under your said premise, a child who is murdered was predestined for that outcome.

I guess it's a little quibble point but spiritual death is being dead to good works. One of the effects of that spiritual death is the removal of the presence of God. An effect is not the definition but a result.

I agree with everything in your last comment except for what I quoted you above. I tend to believe that the only way to redeem us from our spiritual death is through Christ who had no spiritual death and thus why he is called the life and the way.

I don't know about this but I would bet it's false.

I would find it strange for there to be two or more hill Cumorahs.

Apples and oranges

The drumlin in New York is officially recognized by the church as being called the "Hill Cumorah".

Door of Salvation "The Savior's sacrifice opened the door of salvation for all to return to God." This is consistent with the 3rd article of faith: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved..." John 10:1-18 talks extensively about how Christ is the door. 2 Nephi 31:17 explains that this door, or gate, is repentance and baptism. Romans 6 explains the connection between Christ and baptism. It is also explained in my previous post, "Biblical Take on Remission." Kingdoms of Salvation "His grace is the enabling power that allows access into God’s kingdoms of salvation." In the scriptures it repeatedly talks about the kingdom of God (singular) and what is needed to go there. Salvation is entrance into God's kingdom (singular). However, in February of 1832 God revealed the meaning of His phrase, "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you." (John 14:2, see also D&C 76:111) Anybody, even with a belief in the trinity, should understand the concept of three in one. If His grace is the enabling power that allows access into the kingdom of God, then obviously this is also true of all kingdoms within His kingdom. The requirements to get into the kingdom of God are also necessary to get into any kingdom within. So I repeat, salvation is entrance into God's kingdom. Likewise, salvation is entrance into any of God's kingdoms within His kingdom. It is stated in scripture and by President Uchtdorf that, "because of His grace, we will all be resurrected and saved in a kingdom of glory." And, "numberless people will inherit ... salvation, [in] even the lowest kingdom of glory, the telestial kingdom." (see above for exact quote, see also D&C 76:88 and D&C 76:109) Baptism is Required for Salvation To summarize, baptism is required for salvation. Baptism is required to enter the kingdom of God. Therefore, baptism is required to enter the telestial kingdom of salvation because it is part of the kingdom of God. Confusion on this topic has come because of overlooking or misunderstanding of more recent revelation, even by a prophet and an apostle. I will explain the origins of the misunderstanding, how it was cleared up by revelation, and how it was brought back and is present in church manuals today in my next posts (Understanding Baptism Line upon Line, Misunderstanding Baptism for Salvation). However, it is fortunate that despite this misunderstanding, the concept in the third paragraph by President Uchtdorf quoted above did also persist. "As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we aspire to something unimaginably greater. It is exaltation in the celestial kingdom." Posted by Vince Methot at 5:00 AM He is where I was some 15 years ago. So many issues to talk about that he brings up. Just one area I agree with is that baptism is essential to salvation. But therein lies the issue, we, as a church body, do not comprehend that baptism is merely a gate, it gets us no salvation, just access to the path, that upon completion, gets us salvation. That path takes us through kingdoms, through the steps required, to become perfect. It is at that point we gain salvation.

I see change happening but in order for it to happen it will be through small and simple steps. Correcting some doctrinal definition of words and terms would come first. I think it would literally take years and perhaps decades to change/modify an entire doctrine concerning heaven and hell and the plan of salvation. I am highly optimistic though.