Rob Osborn

Well, the scriptures speak of being "saved" from hell. It doesn't speak of being saved from anything else. If we are saved, in gospel terms, we are "saved" from hell.

So, you believe there is another path other than the one the Savior speaks of to be saved. Is this correct?

Um, the place where the devil and his angels go- outer darkness.

So, do you believe someone can escape hell eternally without following the Savior in all he commands?

Welcome to my brain, eh heh. My point is about seeing if one really believes there is one path or many. If one, then what type of individual gets saved in the end?

Do you believe anyone be saved from the eternal hell without strict adherence to the gate and path?

If we could actually see our words through spiritual eyes it would be sequences of actual spiritual matter in varioys arrangements.

Yes. Do you believe there is only one narrow strait path to salvation?

Im curious to know- do you believe in the gospel of salvation there is one path or many and if there is more than one path does it lead to a different destination?

One point must remain- only those who reach the end of the path can be saved. If the path is change of one's carnal self into godliness with the accompanying ordinances and covenants then the destination itself is in that sense a complete change from carnality into godliness. Thus it causes me to marvel that none of these I mention below Christ can save as they enter not in at the gate nor follow the strait and narrow path of change- 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. (D&C 76:103)

Speaking of the path or way of salvation- "Pondering upon the subject of temples and the means therein provided to enable us to ascend into heaven brings to mind the lesson of Jacob's dream. You will recall that in the twenty-eight chapter of Genesis there is an account of his return to the land of his father to seek a wife from among his own people. When Jacob traveled from Beersheba toward Haran, he had a dream in which he saw himself on earth at the foot of a ladder that reached to heaven where the Lord stood above it. He beheld angels ascending and descending thereon, and Jacob realized that the covenants he made with the Lord there were the rungs on the ladder that he himself would have to climb in order to obtain the promised blessings--blessings that would entitle him to enter heaven and associate with the Lord. " (Marion G. Romney) “Paul ascended into the third heaven, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder-the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter." (Joseph Smith) "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

My understanding has come from a thorough study of the doctrine of over 20+ years on this subject. I first noted some inconsistencies about 20 plus years ago and decided to embark on a more thorough study of it. It took two decades to come to where I am at today. Several Paramount paradoxes exist in section 76 when read through the lens of our current plan of salvation doctrine. I have been working through those to eliminate the paradoxes. It really led back to reading the Book of Mormon through the words how Joseph Smith used them in the 1830's and structuring the gospel kind of from scratch, not using our modern understanding as that is not how Joseph Smith used the words. The beautiful part is that once it all started to come together I found those gems in the temple that sealed the deal for me. It's now almost picture perfect. I have been able to convince most of my family members who are still alive of these truths.

We are all on the same page with everything you said except for my belief is different for the worlds of glory after resurrection and judgment. My belief is that only the earth in it's Celestial glory or outer darkness exists at that point. I believe the millennium is for the purpose to perfect all of Christ's fold to be presented spotless to the Father and all will dwell together as families in the CK

Sex organs are as a much a part of our eternal gender identity as anything else.

Western New York

Hum...the temple teaches us otherwise though. We learn two very important things there. First, we learn that our world we now live in is the telestial kingdom/ telestial world. And second, we receive commandments and laws here that govern this kingdom. I mean we could disregard what the temple says, pretend the wording is different but where does that put us? Also, if you think we are under just a mortal and probationary law, does this mean that the law of sacrifice, law of chastity, law of obedience, etc, are just mortal probationary laws?

Aye, I think the big difference is not so much in wether or not there are three separate world's of glory or one but perhaps the belief that lower kingdoms have laws granting marriage and sexual relations within marriages. He doesn't believe so, I believe otherwise.

I think the most important thing here is that the sexual reproductive parts of our bodies are utilized within the lower laws of this kingdom we are now in. And, as such, in eternity that same pattern exists.

I think the big disagreement in the conversation at hand is this erroneous idea that marriage is only recognized within the highest glory of the CK. Now, the real truth, strictly according to scripture, is that in order to reach the highest glory one must be married. That's all it says. It doesn't say anything more or less. Here- "2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]" Now, the logic is that we aren't married within the Celestial kingdom itself as marriage isn't given after resurrection and judgment. We are married "before". And, this marriage happens in a lower order of kingdoms. Thus, applying some simple logic, it's not saying eternal marriage is only recognized within the highest glory, it's saying instead that if one wants to go there he or she must be married at minimum. The logic of eternal laws is as follows- all of God's laws make up the fullness of laws within the CK. But, this doesn't mean he has completely different laws in lower kingdoms than the CK. Lower kingdoms, such as ours we are now in, have a portion of the laws that govern the CK, we just don't have all of them. The terrestrial kingdom has all of our laws of the telestial kingdom plus some additional laws. All those laws make up a greater portion of the laws of the CK but not all of them. Thus, all laws, whether telestial or terrestrial, are also Celestial, just that it's not the fullest measure of all the laws.

We are in the telestial kingdom now. Whether one believes it is the same kingdom or different than after judgment and resurrection is irrelevant. The point Im making is that in our kingdom we are now in it is governed by law. Within that law are certain blessings and restrictions. Marriage is a blessing afforded to us in this kingdom. Because we are governed by telestial law it is safe to say that within telestial law marriage is recognized.

Im not buying into the whole spirit progression from animals to humans. God creates according to the spheres he has placed them within. Thus, for an animal such as a dog, its greatest joy is filling its measure of creation as being a friend to man. It will never know nor understand what its like to be human. It will also not understand its placement as if it missed out on something greater as it will only u derstand its own greatness by filling its own purpose. In its own sphere there will be perfection of joy in filling its creation.

I am LDS and endowed and sealed to my wife in the temple. Heres the logic- We arent in the celestial kingdom physically right now are we? We are in a lower order of kingdom right now. Still following? In this lower order of kingdom God gives to us laws to abide by while here. Still following? These first laws are part of or make up a portion of higher laws. Correct? In this kingdom we are now in God gives to us law upon law, line upon line. Correct? One of the laws he has given us in this kingdom is the law of chastity. God has also given to us in this kingdom the eternal law of marriage of which we are to abide by. Thus, for every kingdom there are laws and blessings. Activities within kingdoms are governed by eternal laws. We are allowed access to portions of Gods blessings in kingdoms according to laws. This means that as long as we follow the laws within that kingdom our activities within said kingdom are justified according to eternal law. Still following? Therefore, eternal marriage, which is a commandment is also both a law and a blessing. Even though our eternal marriage, in its fullest blessings, isn't realized until our glory within the celestial kingdom (a higher order of kingdom than the one we are now in), it is still upheld and recognized by law and as law within this lower kingdom we are now in. Thus, do you see this logic as offensive.

Is it offensive that God gives his ordinances of eternal marriage to man in lower orders of kingdoms such as our we are now in?

My point is that eternal marriage is given to man in the lower order of kingdoms. Are we not in a lower kingdom than the Celestial right now?

BaptIs is the gate that opens into the path.