Rob Osborn

Im not following what you are saying. Why is it that we tend to try to read things into the parable when its not warranted? There are only wheat or tares, theres nothing else, just those two.

Hum... there are those who lose their second estate. Is this not clearly showing a further separation or a more refined separation?

There is doctrine, false doctrines, and true doctrines. One of the problems we have as members is the belief that any and all doctrine taught by the church must be true and anything that even hints at not aligning is false and not true. But as I am showing with this parable of the wheat and the tares, there certainly is this true doctrine that in the end all of the saved recieve celestial glory it shows that we are not complete in our doctrine in it being all true. Certainly, we are indeed in the Telestial kingdom, just as the truthfulness is plainly made manifest in our holy temples and by a prophet of God. But, again, our understanding of this truth is shrouded in doctrines that are not necessarily true. I can clearly point out contradictions in our doctrine proving we teach false doctrines. So, where does this leave us? What or whom should we shun and whom or what to embrace?

Well, we do know that we now live in the Telestial Kingdom. A modern prophet has told us that. But, I am more interested in what the scriptures and temple actually teach as they are less prone to error and mere opinions. In section 76, if one carefully reads it, speaks rather plainly on who is saved and who isnt. The problem arises though that it was written with the speculation that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are kingdoms of salvation after resurrection and judgment. In fact, the Lord shows Joseph in verses 50-70 the state of all the saved in the end. The explanation of the terrestrial and telestial were meant to convey the progressive stages of the plan. Somehow, that meaning was lost in transcribing and understanding. But, lucky for us, the original wording allows us to build a correct picture when we couple it with the temple endowment. For instance- in the terrestrial kingdom are found all those who died without law. Why? Is someone who merely lived and died when the gospel wasnt around destined just for a subpar glory? Section 137 tells us otherwise. The reason why they are in the terrestrial glory is because the terrestrial kingdom takes place during the millennium and during that 1000 years they will have the opportunity to accept and live according to the law of the gospel. Telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are temporary kingdoms that are made to advance man into the type of beings that are savable. Read verses 50-70 very carefully and compare them eith the previous verses of that same section of those whom Christ saves. Verses 50-70 is the very "testimony" of the only ones Christ saves and cleanses from all sin as mentioned here in these verses- 40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us— 41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; 42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. Now compare with how verse 50 reads out- 50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just— Verses 50-70 then give the account of the resurrection of the just and bears testimony of those whom he saves as mentioned prior.

So, what you are saying is that the parable isnt really true, that there is another field of corn or beans not spoken of. Sounds iffy.

There very much is a first and a second spiritual death. They are both the same thing but they are called "first" and "second" to designate the timing and effects as they are different. All are redeemed from the first spiritual death and brought back before God in judgment. Those found filthy still at that point are cast into the second death which is an eternal spiritual death, its no longer temporary. Thus, at judgment, there is either the right hand to inherit eternal life or on the left to inherit eternal death.

This is true, just as a fact that all of us flat out sin.

Hum...where in the parable might these others be?

Of course there was a decision made. Some chose to follow Christ at that point and some chose to follow Satan. Those who followed Satan lost their first estate.

The plan, from the foundation of the world was that we would show obedience so that we could all return. The flip side is that if we fail we would become those who would be cast out with the devil and his angels.

Section 76, in my opinion, was given in answer to Joseph's inquiry that he had assumed there certainly must be more than one kingdom the saved inherit. The Lord shows forth the vision. Later it gets written and compiled into what we now have. The problem here is the interpretation. The Lord was trying to show Joseph Smith that truly, in the end, there is only the Celestial kingdom where the saved all dwell. Several clues given throughout prove this point. But, it isn't really recognized until one understands the endowment and the progression through kingdoms in order to become Celestial grade in order to be saved. Thus, section 101 is stating factually that in the end there is truly only Celestial glory or lake of fire and brimstone.

It's line upon line. The Lord reveals his doctrine line upon line. Man understands things little by little. The problem is that man jumps to conclusions that later end up being incorrect. When seen as a whole being unfolded it makes better sense. The Lord is trying to show man the plan of salvation and that in the end it's only possible to be saved if one becomes like God, his sons and daughters, cleansed from all sin and godly in their attributes. This is what the Lord is showing. It's not possible to be a liar and saved. It's not possible to be only lukewarm in the gospel and be saved. It's not possible to accept only some of godliness and be saved.

We're all having a conversation in here, it's open to all.

Except that section 101 is given after sections 76,88. The endowment is given after those all.

Okay, so, in these verses are there other groups or just these two- 27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father; 28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. I can show you this same pattern hundreds of time in scripture. Are they all wrong?

Because the Lord is speaking, he doesn't lie. Also, this the portion of this parable is given after Section 76 and 88 and prior to the end of end. When coupled together we see a pattern of revelation and how Christ's gospel really is a strict dichotomy.

Read Revelations. Why is it that in the end there are all those permitted into the Celestial kingdom (holy city) whereas without are the devil and his angels.- 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Why is it that this group is in the lake of fire and brimstone?

The reason they aren't mentioned is because at that point, at the end of the millennium, there is only Celestial glory or outer darkness.

Hum..yeah, that's opinion alright. We are at least in the same boat in being able to offer opinions. The difference though is that in the scriptures the "wheat" all get crowned with Celestial glory. Anything left is burned. This means they are cast into outer darkness.

In the end, all of God's children will either claim God as their father or Satan as their father. Thus all will be either a son of God or a son of the devil. There isn't any other outcome.

Spirit prison is the very hell where Satan dwells. That is 100% correct. This spirit prison which is the "hell" spoken of in scripture is a place where only the wicked go. Alvin was not wicked and did not go to hell at death. He was firm in his conviction of the Savior and the gospel being restored through his brother. He was recieved into Paradise.

So, in the parable of the wheat and the tares, in your opinion, are the Telestial heirs wheat or tares?

In the parable it speaks of all people who enter the earth, not just a portion at either extreme. In Matthew it says- 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one. We either end up being wheat or tares in the end. I have had many say it doesn't cover all God's children. But, they can't provide any supporting scripture. There is only wheat or tares. There isn't a third group. Just like when God says he will gather all people and separate them- the righteous all on his right hand and the wicked all on his left hand. There isn't a third or fourth or fifth hand. The challenge for you is to prove that in the parable God left out innumerable groups of people.

To clarify- we shouldn't conflate the first spiritual death and temporary hell with the second spiritual death and eternal hell that awaits the unrepentant at judgment.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14-15)