Rob Osborn

I agree with everything you said. Well done. But I might add a question in response- But do we acknowledge and recognize truth, or are really "open" to another's personal revelation and interpretations, especially if it is outside of the box we have been inside our whole life, what we have built as security? Are we afraid of truth if it doesn't come from an authorities source such as a prophet? In asking this I tend to think we take too lightly each other's spiritual gifts in discerning and expounding truth to each other. We still want things to be the same, just able to share those same things more openly. Will we crack out of the shell and realize we can receive revelation and truth on par with the prophets regarding truth?

You can lead a horse to water...

It's been my experience that people claim to know much more than they think they know at the expense of making others look bad and when pressed upon close inspection they try to derail or avoid the point. Complacency seems comfortable.

I don't know where people get the idea I get revelations that conflict with the prophets. We are responsible for our own learning. We have a lot of resources before us to gather from, far more than any other church on the face of the Earth. And whether we like it or not our scriptures testify of a very typical heaven/hell dichotomy. Call it Protestantism or whatever, the fact remains. I slowly put together all the pieces, a little from here a little from there from what's already been revealed and I slowly but steadily paint a picture of truth. One of the principles of the gospel, an immovable pillar of truth are these verses- 26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all. 27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father; 28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. I have had the witness of the Holy Ghost testify this is true, it cannot be changed! Any doctrine, for it to be true, has to fit within these scriptures. There are hundreds of scriptures nearly identical to these stating basically the exact same testimony of truth. It is a fundamental pillar of truth in Christ's doctrine. There are two outcomes- spoken of here- the righteous to be gathered on the right hand to receive eternal life or be found on the left hand of God to be cast with the devil and his angels into the everlasting fire. Call it Protestantism or whatever you will, but it is a fundamental and immovable truth of Christ's doctrine. Any and all further light and knowledge must fit within this truth. To state otherwise is to deny Christ and his very words that proceed from his lips. Gathering information, further light and knowledge comes from a variety of sources. We can receive confirmation of truth in the temple, in our thoughts and, from scripture, from talks, from study, from visions and dreams, each other, etc. One of those bigger fragments is from the House of the Lord- His holy temple. What does the temple teach? The plan of salvation- Christ's saving gospel with all of the accompanying steps, ordinances and covenants necessary for us to return home. As such it comes as no surprise to me that the very things I put together harmonize in the endowment. There we are taught the true meaning of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms and how we progress through them in our journey towards perfection, where we overcome all things and are made spotless. And, as is logical, it is there we find that salvation comes in the end culminating on our entrance into the presence of God in the Celestial kingdom. Now, hearkenibg back to those verses I quoted from section 29, it supports perfectly that doctrine. The temple endowment is the most up to date "further light and knowledge" we have concerning the plan of salvation. We are responsible for our own learning and understanding. And while the world seems stuck in the dark ages, I work these things out diligently. The pieces are already there, we just have to connect all the dots. It's a fact that our doctrines concerning the plan of salvation don't all agree with section 29. So, either section 29, and the other 200+ scripture references are wrong or our understanding is still in it's infancy and we aren't seeing the correct picture yet. Ironically, all we have to do is go to the temple, it spells it out so very clear. But will we see it? Not very easy. Let me ask you this, will you, or can you prove those verses in section 29 are false or misleading? If they are true, as I so testify, then please stop being critical of the Lord's dichotomy of heaven or hell.

Is this kind of a shot at me that I'm unable to receive further light and knowledge? I ask that in light of certain spiritual knowledge I have received showing that God's plan to save his children is far beyond our understanding as a church general body.

I agree but I see the angle like this- "Father, they don't really understsnd the doctrine". "We will thus emphasize for them to go into the vineyard and work, that through it they may not only feed my sheep but help them realize the depth of my doctrine and help them realize some of their misunderstandings concerning my work".

There are lots of instances in scripture speaking about being born again. In reference to the plan of salvation, it only speaks of being spiritually reborn one time once one turns to God. I'm not aware of other scripture references you may know of.

In your analogy I think, from my own point of view, we arent really doctrine masters. We are like beginner skiers in the 19th century just starting to find out how e may be able to construct some kind of contraption to go over the snow. Perhaps we havent even invented the ski yet! This is how I see the doctrine in the church, where we are at, what we know and how it can be applied. I do however see a shift in "doing". But, I think this is the Lords way of getting us to truly learn what can be invented to go over the snow (doctrine).

Hum..I don't agree. In the sense of being "born again" as spoken in scripture it refers to our being born again unto righteousness. As sinners, people are "dead in tresspass and sin". They thus need to be born again unto righteousness. As far as I can tell, we come into mortality already alive in Christ and thus alive in the spirit and we need no rebirth at that point.

I'm a bit confused. How is a person reborn into mortality? Perhaps you meant to say "born into mortality"? I will agree that spiritual death is tied to sin. I believe that though a person born into mortality is in a state of death so to speak, they are still alive in Spirit to righteousness. As they become accountable they slumber into spiritual death. It's at that point they need a spiritual rebirth.

What do you mean by pass through a form of death? I'm talking about being born again, in the spirit.

Are these people born again?

All good insights. I like how you use the Book of Mormon. Well done. I may add one question- How is this verse related to being reborn? What is he dead to? 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1)

This topic I brought up in another thread and I want to further discuss it. I brought up that we as LDS do not really know what this means. As a Sunday School teacher years ago I was surprised to see such a widespread response. It's not a topic we discuss very often as we don't refer to ourselves so much as born again Christians, even though that's exactly what we are. I'd like to discuss more of the details and see where people stand. As we discuss I will throw in my two cents but I first want to see how people respond to a few questions- 1. Is being born again a second birth, and if so when was the first? 2. Does being born again happen immediately or over a long period of time or somewhere in between? 3. What does it mean to be born again? Does this mean a person not spiritually reborn is dead? And dead in what way? 4. If we are born again what do we inherit? 5. What does it mean if we fail to be born again?

I believe everyone is responsible for their own learning of which includes the necessary covenants for exaltation (exaltation is the highest glory being bound in eternal marriage in the CK). So no, it makes no logical sense that a baby is automatically exalted. They do not bypass their own learning and understanding. They too will be responsible for their own learning.

Will they enter their exaltation as children?

Acknowledged. I may start a topic on the matter. Be interesting to see if you post.

And how does one propose to know how its possible that someone who lacks knowledge of exaltation will be exalted?

Do you want to discuss or not?

I think your on track. I like to read slowly, ponder scriptures and ask simple logical questions. The manual seems to do this quite well. From there my mind explodes. I get all excited and start making flow charts, scripture groupings and applying the principles into the overlap of other topics and then tying it in all together. My favorite application I did was with Christs parable of the wheat and the tares. Finding out about who the wheat are, who the tares are, how it applies in latter day times with temples being the "garners", the wheat representing the harvest, of which isnt realized until a spouse is sealed to a mate in the temple. And from there how their names get written in the books in the temple where it is also written in heaven. It gets exciting for me because the overlap comes into play with realizing the Lord speaks in many different ways to say the same thing. Overlap here would be the sheep and the goats- the sherp being the wheat, the tares being the goats. Overlapped again- the sheep on the right hand representing priesthood, power and authority to save and uohold whereas the goats on the left having no master to save representing judgment, doom, desolation. Its all intertwined, it gets real fun when we arent hampered down with too much commentary and we explore on our own.

Im willing to engage but I dont care for condescending tones.

Alma and the Son's of Mosiah before their conversion in a large part kind of represent our approach we have now days. Given that we aren't trying to destroy the church like they were, we do indeed have a lackluster desire to want to learn, teach, exhort, and live the gospel above all other worldly desires. So what changed for them? They saw the direct results of what happens to those who fail to be converted to the gospel. It was a mighty change. In that process they began to hunger for truth, with real intent, putting forth a great desire to know. The boat we are in is we are complacent in our understanding, we don't really understand what "eternal torment" is, we don't study and pray to know these things for ourselves. We blindly accept many teachings like a test in school if we just give the right answers on Sunday. I asked Wade a specific off the top of your head question. He didn't reply because either he was not confident in the answer or thought it was too comical to address. The whole point is that a serious knowledgeable person of the gospel- a true disciple knows the answer inside and out and is ready and willing to appease. We spend all too much time debating what we think the gospel is without truly knowing what it really is. I find it interesting how many times I will be told I am wrong on the basic principles of the gospel (gospel according to Rob) when most times I am directly referencing the Savior from scripture. So, like the pre born again Son's of Mosiah, I am left to believe we aren't converted- we don't really know and live the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is upon us to understand the gospel, to know all the insurance and outs. To know the details, how they apply. Not understanding something as simple as baptism being the ordinance where in we enter into a covenant relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we are not cast aside into outer darkness can be Paramount to our conversion and others around us whom we influence.

I will agree with that. I was thinking more along these lines- 3 Now they were desirous that salvation should be declared to every creature, for they could not bear that any human soul should perish; yea, even the very thoughts that any soul should endure endless torment did cause them to quake and tremble. (Mosiah 28:3). Do we go out into the world with this same drive? No, not generally. Why? Is it that maybe we don't really understand the ramifications of our actions? I experienced in some degree the feelings they experienced in being cast off. Suffered many night terror events over the years. It motivated me to understand the gospel and to look out into the world and ask the right question- at what point does this individual become converted and born again?. Knowing the gospel, in all of it's details, helps us to have a more clear picture of the plan of salvation and it's importance. I too often feel like we as LDS have this laxadasical approach to understanding and sharing with others the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes it's true we are converted through our actions. But without knowledge and understandings we may not be applying it for the greatest good. We need to come to the conclusion that all, not just some elite group, need to understand the gospel like Alma and the Son's of Mosiah with the same fear of failure to repent and do what's right.

That's kind of what I thought you would say. Kind of proves my point.

My answer is in getting you to answer, bear with me here.