Rob Osborn

Short answers- Did Adam and Eve sin by partaking the fruit? Yes Because they fell we are. We all need saving. We all fall, when we choose to follow Satan just like our first parents fell spiritually by giving in to his temptations. Satan tries to destroy our agency (prevent free will) by tempting us so that we get chained down to his will and not our own.

I didn't say that. I said the info in the temple is from a different angle and in that regards isn't as comparable as Genesis, Moses and Abraham. The temple adds lots of dialogue and instruction regarding their dealings with God in the garden. In this regards the temple fills in some of the details otherwise not mentioned. Those details deal with more spiritual matters.

Spirit prison is hell. It's where the detestable wicked spirits go. It's not where 11 year old Jewish girls who die of cancer go. They go to Paradise. No, I have always been LDS, born into the covenant.

Well, you are wrong. No nice way to say it. "Spirit prison" is hell. No ifs and or buts.

I agree with one caveat. Any and all who set foot into the way of salvation unto eternal life will achieve it. Only those who fully end up rejecting the Savior, like Satan, will not achieve it.

Open a new thread. I am happy and willing to chime in.

Yes, but the "second death" is a second spiritual death and only those not saved at the last great day of judgment suffer that demise.

Thanks. My belief concerning the thief on the cross stems from what the scripture actually says not what we want to shoehorn it to mean to fit our own paradigms. On the one hand we want to relegate the thief to hell as a wicked sinner yet on the other forgive the women caught in adultery immediately as Christ did. It's like a double standard. We don't want to believe Christ has the power to forgive a thief and so we make the thief out to be a murdering wicked sinner so that we are justified in saying he went to hell after his death on the cross. And, to top it off, we take Christ's words out of context completely to say he actually meant the opposite (paradise here actually meaning hell). I don't buy any of it. It's all built on misunderstandings and disregarding Christ's ability to forgive. In our paradigm we have this hazy foggy line on one hand of who goes to hell at death and yet on the other we claim it's a hard and easily discerned line. And so, I prove this point- yes, a wicked murderer who loves and revels in wickedness will go to hell upon death. But, we don't have these same reservations in regards to say an 11 year old Israeli girl who is of the Jewish faith and dies of cancer at that age. We don't say she's going to hell.

We shouldn't conflate the "second death" language with "hell" or "spiritual death" as the second death in scripture has a unique and separate meaning.

So, rather than answer my question you default to the standard "you don't know what you are talking about". I really would be interested in your interpretation of those verses. It's not a hard thing. It spells it right out. I'm all ears.

And if we contradict Christ himself? Just a quick quiz- read section 101 verses- 65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be; 66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire. What is your interpretation here of who the wheat are? What they receive? And, who the tares are? What they receive? And, is there anyone else that got left out?

The terms "hell", "outer darkness", and "spirit prison" all mean the same thing in reference to where the wicked go after death.

I carry my thoughts in the direction the Lord speaks. Does he not have only two hands? The righteous on the right and the wicked on the left? Is there not but just the sheep he keeps or the goats he cast aside? Is it false there be just wheat who inherit Celestial glory or tares to be burned in everlasting fire? All of these are teachings by Jesus Christ. I am not the author, He is. Now, in relevance to the topic at hand, Joseph saw his brother Alvin in heaven. He was told that God will judge those who didn't have the opportunity to accept by the desire of their hearts. In the Book of Mormon we read of those who depart into spirit prison at death- 13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. 14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection. (Alma 40:13-14) So I ask- Did Alvin fit this criteria of those who go to hell after death? 1. Evil and wicked 2. Have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord 3.Chose evil works rather than good 4.Spirit of the devil entered in and took possession of their soul 5. Because of their iniquity were led down captive by the devil 6. In a state of awful fear looking for the wrath and fiery indignation of God upon them. This is the criteria for those who are to be sent to hell at death. So, was Alvin sent here? Did he fit the criteria?

Well, certainly opinion abounds. It's an interesting story which carries rich symbolism. On the left hand is the wicked malefactor who takes upon the role of Satan tempting him and railing the Savior to save themselves. On the right hand is the sinner who recognizes Christ and submits his will to him just as Christ gave his will to the Father. Thus, Christ saves those on the right hand but not the wicked on the left. It's interesting that paradise as used here is the place where Christ himself will be- that they will dwell together in the same place in the here after. Christ has the ability to fogive whom he will. Now, of course he still must be baptized but baptism is not a requirement to be saved into Paradise as it is not heaven but rather a go between. The question still remains- why did Christ appear in paradise and teach them the gospel of repentance and baptism?

Hum...I don't know if I agree. I have a different interpretation. I read section 138 in light of a need to separate the wicked from the righteous. Much like on our earth, we separate the wicked into prisons away from the righteous who are free. I see this as the same over on the other side. There are indeed righteous people who belong to other faiths or no faith at all. There really isn't a need to separate someone who is trying to do what they believe is righteous and do good works and throw them into torment just because they aren't baptized at that point. To the thief on the cross Jesus declared he would go to Paradise. His penalty for sin is death of which he paid. His acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ at that moment was the deciding factor. Reading section 138 I am left to wonder why Christ appears in paradise to teach them his gospel- "19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance." If they already we're all baptized there isn't a need to teach them to repent and be baptized. It is in this light I read verse- 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. The two groups spoken of here, the first being those who were in paradise who died not knowing the truth but had Christ appear to them to be taught, and two, the wicked who are in prison because they rejected the truth but have missionaries commissioned to teach them there because Christ couldn't go because of their wickedness in rejecting the truth. A person who dies without knowing the truth cannot be judged by law. In the days of Noah the wicked all perished in the flood and we're shut up in the prison to be in torment because of their rejection of the gospel.

I have oft wondered over this. My opinion is that the basically righteous in mortality go to Paradise whether they were baptized or not. I'm not sure the dividing line is baptism by proper authority. Can you provide a scripture?

It's screwed on straight. I'm wondering why we are discussing this issue. It's plainly manifest in scripture. The dead who repent will be saved. I teach nothing more nor less than this truth.

"Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy." (Guide to the Scriptures)

The wicked go into hell at death. The righteous go into Paradise. In both locations the gospel is taught and those who accept will be saved. Everyone will get the opportunity to hear and accept.

It is supported very strongly by our doctrine. But because of our confusion we don't get it.

Lots of bad and phony doctrine there in that link to ask Gramps. Just a bad response, not well thought out at all. If a person has been wicked, regardless of who their parents are, and they fail to repent in mortality they will go into spirit prison. There they will have the opportunity to repent, accept the gospel and the laws and ordinances of the temple. After they are washed clean and pay the penalty demanded by justice they can be released from spirit prison. How long that is no one knows. Our doctrine teaches that no one pays the price for their sins and becomes cleansed through that suffering. Only repentance and accepting Christ and then baptism has power to cleanse. No other process, whether it be suffering or pain cleanses. My own opinion is that the wicked who choose not to repent are the only ones who remain in hell for the millennium. After the millennium is over, they will be resurrected, judged, deemed filthy still and then be cast into outer darkness with the devil and his angels. Repentance and baptism is an essential saving ordinance. No man can be saved from the eternal hell that awaits the wicked without repentance from all sin and baptism.

Especially when you couple it with the work for the dead, both those who haven't yet heard and those who rejected it.

In due respect, I highly regard the temple as sacred. I further believe that we can speak of the work to some degree we do in the temple and still keep it sacred.

It's safe to say there are genetic problems that create people such as hermaphrodites. I tend to think male and female procreation is a divine law, even an unchanging law.

There definitely is a sacred element to it and as such I don't discuss those sacred parts. When discussing such topics as the plan of salvation and the endowment with how it plays out the plan Is don't see an issue with discussing the general elements because, after all, it is the plan of salvation.