Rob Osborn

A religious ideal would be something such as- "find and marry a returned missionary". I see too many marriages fail within our religion and I see a strong correlation with their separation/divorce and their belief that sharing a commomn religious ideal is of utmost importance but they dont truly love each other.

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I married my wife who wasn't a member at the time. A few years later she converted. You have man's understanding on the one hand and how God really works on the other. Just remember- we all came to this earth with the same goal to return to our Heavenly Father.

My last ward I lived in was hard questions every week. I stopped going to the regular doctrine class because it would often turn into a debate every time because someone would always bring up that question people can't leave alone.

What really bothers me about folks like Sam Young is they really hate the church and it's leadership but yet profess to want to remain members in the face of their excommunication. Sam new he would be exed but yet pleaded out publicly his desire to remain LDS. For what reason? They don't want to be LDS anymore- they hate the church, so why the self righteous pleading? Well, Lucifer himself did the same thing. A lesson to us all about pride and self aggrandisement.

I would even go so far to state that the real and true general history of how the Americas got populated and the civilizations that started were in fact the Book of Mormon peoples. Ask yourself- if the history isn't at all important, and engraving metal plates was hard for the Nephites, why are certain historical aspects included in the record? Is it to better understand their story or is it to give it a historical basis, or both? And, does the inclusion of history in their record make the Book of Mormon more powerful?

If we do not first take the scriptures as literal real events in the history of mankind then none of it has any real lasting power. With the Book of Mormon we must ask- does it contain a historical background in its record? Absolutely. Whereas it isn't the main history it does include enough history and framework to understand other is a real story with certain events to write up a history, although brief in some regards, of them.

I often wonder if Lucifer himself started his own road into perdition because of the self glory of being noticed and supported in his cause. Reading Sams blog I noticed that he fell in love with social media and having a voice where people noticed him. Its the same for all them folks, John Dehlin especially. There is a certain pride there that empowers them and they will stop at nothing to have supporters behind them and the mental attitude of acknowledgement in their cause.

I suppose you have historical evidence- proof of Christs resurrection? And yet we believe it must be so. How is that different than a belief the Book of Mormon to be true? So too would Christ be meaningless if he wasnt actually resurrected.

Im of tge belief we eat in heaven. Eating fruit doesnt mean death. The life is in the tree.

Do we eat in heaven?

I dont think no one is arguing the Book of Mormon is "the" history of their stories. The question is if it is actual records within the history of mankind which contains an abbreviated history of their peoples. There is a slippery slope into the whole "inspired fiction" if one concludes or assumes/believes its not an actual history of a real people.

If what you are proposing were true then surely it would be a false teaching, nothing more nor less. But, if it is true, and I believe it is, then it would be you whose questioning originated with Satan.

Ive been following this stoty of Sam Young, the latest public dissenting voice in our membership. He wants to stop personal interviews that involve chastity questions with our youth. Is he the prototypical enemy of our church? I believe so. Whereas his motives seem sincere his tactics and allegations are typical of being a wolf in sheeps clothing. Even though they claim to want to retain membership on the one hand for the world to see, on the other they tell people not to join the corruption and then go on to denounce the prophets and their ability. These types are the worst kind because they use a front of innocence like children (as you can see on the front page [Mod: really dude?] of his organization against the church) to get people to take his side and then attack the leadership as horrible monsters. Theres no doubt in my mind he is the next new prototypical face of the enemy of the church. Will he be excommunicated? He should, but that is not my call to make. Its hard to go to church as a lamb only to sit next to the very wolves that pretend to do no harm. His potential for destroying the sheep are greater than the cause he supposedly is fighting for.

Its interesting how our views of each others point of view can be what it is. You think my understanding and view of the Book of Mormon is diminished because of how you think I think. I genuiniely believe that you have no idea how the formulation of the Book of Mormon works in my mind and how I treasure it. You see, I understand the absolute importance of reality in history and how that reality of the past weighs on the minds of the reader. We dont turn to Harry Potter for inspiration, neither do we pray to Han Solo. We look for answers by looking at reality, understanding history and its consequences. You dont see the United Nations looking to Star Trek for answers for international peace. Presidents of countries dont quote Superman to inspire people. Our own lives are forged in historic reality as time rolls on- its what we know is real. Its no wonder then that we look to the reality of history for answers to deep thought. We are shaping the reality of the future out of events that become historic reality. This is paramount to the deep understanding of the Book of Mormon and the convincing of nations to the truth of its message. Im not hung up on the historical value of the book like you may believe me to be but the reality of it is that without its underlying historic context the Book of Mormon would mean very little.

My son who is about to be divorced had an extremely rough time dealing with his wife cheating on him. He told me he now knows what its like for those who think to committ suicide or even go through with it. He said if it wasnt for us and our great love and reaching out to him he may have killed himself. My views on suicidal thoughts have changed over the years as a result of experiences I have had. Suicide may be wrong but I am convinced its not a sin. A sin is best defined as ":a wicked act.". People who have suicidal thoughts are usually at the butt end of anothers wicked act- the direct result of anothers infliction of evil upon them.. Something to think about...

Im not so sure suicide is a sin. Having had a close friend and family member committ suicide and having to overcome great feelings of dread and depression myself I can say that usually a person who goes through with suicide was to ease otherwise overwhelming and inescapable feelings. If a suicidal person doesnt have extremely great relations with close friends and family it will succumb them and they will search for any way out. Its the most awful dread. I can hardly believe for a second that wanting to escape that terror and find peace is a sin.

I'm curious- do you believe those who wrote the Book of Mormon were disconnected from reality, or their version was somewhat of a fantasy? Or, do you believe it was written as basically a true reality of how things really were?

The greatest story is the Book of Mormon in my opinion. Stories can have both fictional characters and settings like Star Wars or be real like the Book of Mormon. Whereas both have good stories only one will have the true lasting power. Where the rubber meets the road, people who want real depth and understanding do not turn to fiction, they turn to what's real- the real history of peopke and their experiences in the real world.

And the point I keep making is why are the stories Jesus told of such value? Because he is real and part of reality. That's the whole point.

But we know the parables are used as a story to relate something. We keep going over this moot point. The person telling the story is real and his experiences are real. Those he are speaking to are real. Thats the point. Why arent you comprehending that? BTW, there isnt a serious religion of Robin Hood.

This isnt a limitation on God. Gods house is a house of order, not one of confusion. Gods house is also a house of literalness not fiction or fairytales. Let me ask you this- what serious religion out there is based off of fiction or ficticious characters? None! Why?

Like I have always stated, been stating- the stories from the scriptures, their meanings, their importance, etc, mean absolutely nothing-nothing at all, of no worth whatsoever, if they are not based off of literal historical events that really happened.

They have different assignments. The second counselor is usually charged with being in charge of the Scouting in a ward. Each counselor will also be assigned to a specific quorum in the YM and class within the YW. Besides that, one counselor will oversee the YM program and one will oversee the YW program. In Sunday school one counselor will be assigned and will oversee and meet regularly with the presisency there and report back to the bishop. In primary one counselor is assigned to oversee and meet regularly with the primary presidency. He is also in charge of the priesthood and temple preparation portion of learning there along with helping guide the annual sacrament meeting primary program. These are the basic individual duties of specific counselors. There are a myriad of other specific duties assigned to them by the bishop such as overseeing clerk's, finances, extending callings and setting aparts, interviews, etc.