brotherofJared
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Posts posted by brotherofJared
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14 hours ago, Traveler said:
My polygamists great grandfather wrote in his journal that too many members were committing sin by their polygamists marriages and that they and the church would come under great condemnation for it.
The Traveler
That's pretty vague. I'm not sure how you're applying that to the purposes that were served by polygamy.
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1 hour ago, Scott said:
We are told that the parable of the Ten Virgins refers to our church (as in active members, not excommunicated ones). Half will be ready and half will not (though we don't know if half is literal).
Here are the things that our Church leaders have said about being ready:The final thing that we are to do is to be able and willing to consecrate all that we have to the building up of the kingdom of God, to care for our fellow men. When we do this we’ll be ready for the coming of the Messiah.-Marion G Romney
Also Joseph Smith said that one of the requirements for being ready for the second coming is living the United Order.
Do you really think that most members of the Church are prepared and ready to live the United Order? I certinaly don't (I can't say I am either). If we were, we'd be living it already.
Of course that is only one requirement of being ready for the Second Coming. There are many.Whether we are ready for it or not though, the Lord will come. He isn't going to refrain from coming just because we aren't ready for it. All the signs must happen before his coming, but having church members being prepared isn't one of them. Some will be, a lot won't.
I don't know where I heard this, but the principles of the United Order seem to change over time. They change to meet the capacity of the Saints. God will never give us a commandment that we cannot follow and right now, having everything in common is not something we can live. However, we can live the principles of the United Order. Now if you are referring to those who can't accept King Benjamin's description of the United Order, then yes, There are a lot of people who aren't prepared. Note, we are not "required" to live it, but we should be prepared to live it, namely in that all things that the Lord has given us are the Lord's and we only have stewardship over it, not ownership. That is the problem that left the saints condemned in Kirkland. Everyone believes they have a right to make a profit, but in the circumstances of those early days and in the circumstances today, that profit should not be packed with greed. Land speculation was only one problem. There were many, but basically it was a situation where those who had took advantage of those who had not. That is not united.
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Well, God revealed, very early on, the sacred nature of marriage in that it should be permanent and then amended it because we weren't ready for it. I think any truth we get, we're ready for it. Sometimes, it only to an individual. Sometimes to the church. Sometimes to the world. When the truth that Christ lives is presented to the world in unquestionable fashion, a great many will not be ready for it but a lot of us will be.
The portion of the gospel that was discussed in the OP is simply referring to the Book of Mormon's portion added to the Bible. I do not believe everyone was ready for that, but certainly, there were some.
We receive light and truth as soon as we are able to. Whether or not the rest of the church is able to receive it is another question. My experience is that we can share what we've learned in small and intimate groups, but trying to force the church or disagree with leaders before it has been revealed to the body is a bad course of action. The Scout leader that sued the church over a black patrol leader not being allowed to hold that position only got him excommunicated and then about a year or two later, the church changed its policy. (I don't want to make this about race and the priesthood, but; I think that one was delayed as well because we weren't ready to receive it.)
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But I also agree that assigning ministers is not done very well. Those who do the assignments are not being smart. On day one, I was assigned 20 families. 3 months later, I was assigned 5 and none of them were on my first list. Now it changes without notice and I have only had one interview.
It probably doesn't help that my presidency has been turned over 6 times since that change.
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On 3/21/2020 at 8:51 AM, Traveler said:
I have pondered polygamy. It does not take a rocket scientist to realize that polygamy in the church did not work out. Why?????
Here is my opinion - for what opinions are worth. Isaiah tells us that things are revealed line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept. So it is my opinion that there were some that took the precept of polygamy, and were ready for the next precept concerning polygamy. However, the members of the Church as a whole were at odds with each other from the very onset. Even Joseph Smith was at odds with himself and his wife Emma. Indeed polygamy became like a pruning of a vineyard. I would like to point to that time of confusion but I must admit that I am no more ready to understand the lines or principles than those that failed the test then. I can speculate and I have but as much as there is speculation it does appear to me that the women were and are more prepared than the men. But that the greatest excuse for the men is concern for the women.
The Traveler
Well, IMO, polygamy worked exactly as expected and was a huge success. I'm glad the live practice of it has ended. I do not believe it will need to be reinstated. Now, about a 100 years later, the pendulum has swung the other direction with wives committing there husbands not to marry again. That is unbelievably selfish. Especially with the constant nagging about it when neither spouse is anywhere near death.
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On 3/11/2020 at 8:29 PM, askandanswer said:
Does the length of time between when Joseph Smith was first taught the principle of plural marriage, and the date when he actually started practising it, his hesitancy to start practicing it, and the encouragement he needed from the angel suggest that this was an occasion when the Lord revealed a truth before His children were ready to accept and practice it?
No. Joseph had no problem with it. His reluctance had nothing to do with him not being ready. His reluctance was in his uncertainly of how others would receive it, the most significant of these was Emma who I am certain knew it was coming and made life a living hell for Joseph when he first employed it with Fanny Alger.
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On 3/24/2020 at 1:48 PM, askandanswer said:
Can we agree on the idea that the atonement is needed only by those who die and those who sin? If we can't agree on that, can you refer to scriptures that suggest that the atonement covers categories other than these two? I think that the scriptures that teach that everybody needs the atonement are based on the assumption that everyone will die and everyone will commit sin but I think there may be room to question that assumption. The scriptures are ambiguous on the fates of Moses, Alma the Younger and Elijah and when the father of sin no longer has power there may be some who do not sin.
The scriptures that I read teach plainly that the atonement is needed for all those who die and for all those who sin. So naturally, this raises the question of whether those who do not die and who do not sin need the atonement.
Every mortal is born to die and death came through Adam. The ability to make choices means the ability to sin. We really dont need satan to encourage it. Therefore, every mortal born into the family of Adam needs the atonement. Christ's father was not Adam.
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On 3/21/2020 at 8:37 AM, Traveler said:
As I was reading through this thread it reminded me as a parent (usually in a car going somewhere) and my children (especially the boys) would be having a fuss about something. As a parent I would try to settle the matter while still driving.
Son #2. Son#1 keeps touching me.
Son #1. I did not.
Son #2 Yes you are - you just did it again.
Son #1 I am not touching you - it is your toy that's touching you.
Son #2 You are making it touch me
Son #1 No I am not - you are making it touch you.
Me. Give me the toy - then there is silence for a while
Son #2. Son #1 is laughing at me
Son #1 No I'm not!
Why this little story? I wanted to demonstrate that even thought the two sons could not agree - they were both right and they were both wrong. Neither wanted to settle the matter but rather make something out of nothing and get so caught up in a one up thing that they could not solve the perceived problem. And the perceived problem had nothing at all to do with the fuss.
Here is what I believe the scripture is attempting to tell us. That a long time ago we lived with our Father in the pre-existence. He had a plan for his children - that there would be a fall and mankind would have a mortal trial on earth that would include a physical body and an experience with death. But the plan also included a Messiah that would redeem mankind from death through the resurrection of the dead. All this was planned out Looooong before any of it actually occurred. If there is anything else to do with other worlds or other children of other G-ds or children of our Father in other worlds - it is all speculation and something someone is fantasizing about - like who is touching a toy and why. It does not matter and even if it did matter - it does not solve or change any of our problems as we experience our mortal trial. The scripture does tells us something we can use - that is important to us and we should pay very close attention to that and not wander off on other paths of thought and end up getting lost in a mist of thoughtful darkness.
The Traveler
I don't think it is speculation that Joseph Smith and the Bible both teach that Jesus did what he saw his father do. Therefore, God the Father also atoned for sins.
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On 3/14/2020 at 3:25 AM, askandanswer said:
7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.
Does this verse, by seeming to limit the effects of the atonment to those born in the time between the fall of Adam and the end of the world. in any way detract from the idea that the atonement covers all God's creations, in whatever world, and whenever they may have lived?
No contradiction that I can see. Christ's atonement will not save those who come forth on the new earth and can hardly be atonement for those who his father died for.
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Yep. Interesting how they determined the date...
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On 3/25/2020 at 4:36 PM, askandanswer said:
Its my understanding, in part derived from the section summary at the start of the section 10, that in many of the verses preceding verse 52, the Lord is talking about the Book of Mormon and its coming forth in the latter days. And then in verse 52 it says
52 And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people. Behold, I do not bring it to destroy that which they have received, but to build it up.
Doctrine and Covenants | Section 10:52)
The wording of this verse suggests that the Book of Mormon is only “part of my gospel.” If it is the case that the Book of Mormon is only part of the gospel how would we then reconcile that idea with the idea that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel? How can it simultaneously be both a part and a fullness? What am I missing here?
Ur missing the Bible part. Their prayers would be the prayers of the writers. Enos for example. This part is the book of Mormon. The other part is the Bible. There are still more parts to be revealed when we are prepared or it is needful that we should have them.
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Just now, brotherofJared said:
I agree. Authorized to administer the sacrament must be done in the Lord's way or it is just bread and water. But ministering to anyone in need is a no brainer.
That being said, we still need assignments to avoid chaos. There is a reporting structure with assignments.
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On 3/22/2020 at 7:56 AM, Anddenex said:
I think this is why I am trying to say that people should follow the counsel provided by "key" leadership. The example of me going to a friends house wouldn't be authorized according to given instruction.
I agree. Authorized to administer the sacrament must be done in the Lord's way or it is just bread and water. But ministering to anyone in need is a no brainer.
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On 3/21/2020 at 10:29 PM, priesthoodpower said:
This is what I been saying years ago about why hometeaching numbers were low. Assigned friendships dont work. This new named "ministering" program is still an assignment.
@Fether you are doing something that is genuine and real...hanging out with member friends that you WANT to and not ASSIGNED to visit with. This is TRUE support and ministering. I believe ward boundaries limit some aspects of our worship culture, and in some ways hindering the work. The internet and social media is slowly changing this.
Nothing is stopping u from ministering to anyone u want to. The reason for assignments is to reach those who have no friends in the church. Assignments work.
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On 3/26/2020 at 12:12 PM, Traveler said:
There are no restrictions in Israel to preach the Gospel - except that it is not allowed to religions to solicit. Anyone in Israel that wishes to learn of the restoration and be baptized is protected to do so under the law - Unless they are Museum and under the rule of the Museum Brotherhood.
The Traveler
DId your autocorrect mess that up? Is that Museum or Muslim?
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6 hours ago, e v e said:
The events of Genesis were not upon this earth. Eden was not here.
The events of Genesis are this earth even is Eden is not here. God wasn't creating Eden. He was creating this earth.
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6 hours ago, e v e said:
if all men were lost because of what there parents did, then why was it good what their parents did?
Because we aren't lost anymore. "were" is past tense. At the time that was written, the coming of Christ was prophecied and looked forward too, but now that event has occurred and the opportunity now made available is NOT a return to the garden but to a life that is so much better, even so great that it is possible that we can have children and they can enter that garden and become like us, just like we have been made partakers of the glory of God. That glory did not exist for Adam and Eve in the garden.
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6 hours ago, e v e said:
i hope not.
every day i ask Him to bring me home
and get me out of here .
That's the point. No one stayed here, not even God.
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2 hours ago, e v e said:
the free will to enter and stay in the satanic realm.. (this world.)
Who said anything about staying here?
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2 hours ago, e v e said:
I get that you disagree and lds disagree. I don't see how its so clear for you that all this is good...
the world is harsh and ugly...being only death, disease and destruction...
heaven is millions of miles away..
Well for one we don't think Heaven is a Million Miles Away. And for another, life is not ONLY disease and destruction. I don't know about you but I have no disease at the moment and I am not in the midst of Destruction and I not yet dead. For me life is about life and about health and about opportunity.
I've tried to explain to you several times. We are far better off where we are now than we would be if we had stayed in the garden. The garden was a dead end. The opportunity that life now presents us has unending possibilities including living in the same place that God lives. Adam and Eve did not live where God lived.
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2 hours ago, e v e said:
what i understand is
that the satanic realm conquered eden, and this place is the prison,
the result of what they did to Adam and eve... separating us from our Father
Adam and Eve were already separated from the father. God only came to visit him on occasion. The garden was not heaven.
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2 hours ago, e v e said:
Certainly I didn't mean God forced them... but I meant, the satanic realm forcing them.
Not that either. Deception, yes. Force, no.
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3 hours ago, e v e said:
okay. i thought it was run by the lds church.
So you don’t think force was applied to eden to make adam and eve fall?
And u did it again. 🤔
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3 hours ago, e v e said:
yes.
i understand the damage was done...
but....
Wow. Ur doing it again. Please put ur responses to the post u r responding to. It really helps the discussion. Doing it this way is so confusing.
The timing of truth
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
There is a great deal of difference in preparing one's self and being prepared for things you don't even know would be in store for you. Think Liberty Jail.