clbent04

It's good thinking, but I would lean more towards believing he was referring to the same event since it's almost universally accepted among members of the church to be so. If he was referring to different instances, I think Joseph would have told some of the early members of the church this was the case, and it would have been documented by someone early on as being a possibility

Why do we not hear about Mormon prophets today performing big miracles like prophets in old and new testament? Noah constructed a great ark to be filled with a male and female from every living species on Earth; Moses parted the Red Sea, he smote a rock and out poured water, he lifted up a serpent of brass to save those who would look thereon; Elijah called down fire from Heaven to consume soldiers; Elisha multiplied a widow's oil, raised the dead, purified deadly food, multiplied bread and grain, healed leprosy, and floated an ax; Paul healed a cripple, he was stoned and revived, and he raised the dead. Some say we don't need BIG miracles anymore because we no longer have such a need. I would argue we need big miracles more than ever. Do we not continue to have wars? Do we not continue to have sick among us? Others would say we do hear of many miracles today in the church, but on a much more subtle level. The sick are sometimes healed when Priesthood blessings are administered to them. But these events are never publicized nor do they attract the same national attention as did miracles found within the Bible. The fact miracles today are not publicized on a national level is what raises my skepticism. If big miracles took place today, how would we be able to keep anyone quiet about it? Was Jesus able to keep those whom he blessed quiet even when he specifically charged them to not say anything? Did Jesus not gain national attention even when trying to avoid it? I've heard of miracles happening in the church, but none that are amazing enough to garner national attention. Every miracle I've heard of could be quickly written off by an outsider as a coincidence or happen chance. Do we no longer have big miracles in the church today, and, if not, why? We've had 16 modern-day prophets from 1830 to 2017, and yet none, to my knowledge, has performed a miracle that gained national attention as did many miracles we read of in the Bible. 1. Joseph Smith 2. Brigham Young 3. John Taylor 4. Wilford Woodruff 5. Lorenzo Snow 6. Joseph F. Smith 7. Heber J. Grant 8. George Albert Smith 9. David O. McKay 10. Joseph Fielding Smith 11. Harold B. Lee 12. Spencer W. Kimball 13. Ezra Taft Benson 14. Howard W. Hunter 15. Gordon B. Hinckley 16. Thomas S. Monson I would think at least one miracle performed by one of these men would gain national attention by now if comparing these modern-day prophets with prophets of the Bible. Take for example the healing of a blind man. The medical community has declared the man's case to be incurable. Then a modern-day prophet restores this man's sight. Would the possibility exist for this man to exclaim to the world what happened out of sheer joy and excitement? And at that point, would the medical professionals not review his claim to ensure he was indeed lost case? And then wouldn't the journalists and news outlets share his story? Seems like after 16 modern-day prophets, this would have occurred at least once. Does anyone know of a miracle performed by a modern-day prophet that gained national attention? And no, I'm not looking for a sign, just a pattern between Mormon modern-day prophets and prophets of the Bible.

How are there two personages in the 1832 account? The 1832 account is Joseph writing in his own personal journal about his experience. This journal was not made public until later on. Joseph would not have any need to water down the details of the First Vision when he was writing the experience in his personal journal

Think of how amazing it would be to have God the Father and Jesus Christ appear to you for the first time. It would be an indelible experience. I do not believe that even after repeated visits from heavenly visitors that you could ever confuse what happened when you had that first vision

Your memory is most clear and vivid the closer you are to when an event happened. Details of a memory don't expand and become more vivid to you as more years go by. Our own memories show us it's quite the opposite. 1832 Account I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. 1838 Account "I saw two personages (whose brightness and glory defy all description) standing above me in the air. One of <them> spake unto me calling me by name and said (pointing to the other) 'This is my beloved Son, Hear him.'"

It doesn't matter if Jesus Christ demands repayment from us or not for our sins he took upon himself. The fact remains that he paid the price. The Father did not atone for our sins. Jesus seems to be the relevant party to address when specifically asking for forgiveness. Even though I'm still somewhat confused on this topic, I find some resolution considering that in his righteousness the Son would say glory be to the Father in all things. The Father is the Master Designer of all things. He is the author of the Plan of Salvation even if the Son helped effectuate it.

But these details you omitted or changed are immaterial to the story. They don't matter. Whether it was 15 or 25 big horn sheep, does the story teller and his audience really care? No. I understand you saw a lot of big horn sheep either way. Now, does it make a difference if Jospeh saw one or two "Lords"? Yes. It's not an immaterial fact to omit. A young man has the most powerful experience of his life when he receives a vision where two heavenly beings appear, one introduces the other, and both personally address Joseph. I don't understand how you would have an experience like that and not clearly state seeing two "Lords". It's important to the story, important to the concept of the Godhead (how it's identified and how it functions), and it's especially important to describe in your personal written account of what happened. Joseph wasn't casually sharing a good hiking story with a friend, he was writing down the most profound experience of his life.

I've seen this. The church's website says the exact same thing in the hyperlink provided in the OP

Maybe you follow up one time with the former creditor to ensure the transition went smoothly, but the former creditor is no longer a relevant party thereafter

Once your debt is assumed by a new creditor, the former creditor is no longer relevant to address

Jesus Christ atoned for our sins, yet of the Father we ask forgiveness. Why is this? Should we not be praying to Jesus for forgiveness? He was the one who took our sins upon himself. Is it not the Savior to whom we are indebted? Maybe the argument becomes that even if God the Father chooses to build His Kingdom through His Son, we are still meant to address the Father in prayer for all things as he is the Master Designer of our existence. But even considering this, I still don't get it. Is not the Father and the Son of one accord? To address the Father is also to address the Son and vice versa, correct? Why would we not address Jesus Christ when asking for forgiveness?

Here is a breakdown of the different Kingdoms of Glory per Preach My Gospel and scripture https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/lesson-2-the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng Celestial Kingdom "During our mortal lives we make choices regarding good and evil. God rewards us according to our works and desires. Because God rewards everyone according to deeds done in the body, there are different kingdoms of glory to which we may be assigned after the Judgment. Those who have repented of their sins and received the ordinances of the gospel and kept the associated covenants will be cleansed by the Atonement of Christ. They will receive exaltation in the highest kingdom, also known as the celestial kingdom. They will live in God’s presence, become like Him, and receive a fulness of joy. They will live together for eternity with those of their family who qualify. In the scriptures this kingdom is compared to the glory or brightness of the sun." Terrestrial Kingdom "People who do not accept the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ but live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the moon." Telestial Kingdom "Those who continued in their sins and did not repent in this life will receive their reward in the lowest kingdom, which is called the telestial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the stars." Doctrine and Covenants 76:103 further clarifies this to mean the "liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie." Outer Darkness Helaman 12:25-26. 25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord; 26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery

I could buy that. Especially considering he was 15 years old when he had the First Vision. The first time he recorded it was when he was 27, the second time, 30, the third, 33, and the fourth, 37. A lot of time for reflection and life experience in between those recordings. And maybe Joseph was so overwhelmed by how amazing his vision was and how much he experienced, that he only felt compelled to write down what he thought to be the most pertinent details. Otherwise he might of felt bogged down at the thought of trying to describe his experience perfectly on paper

1. I'm a BILLIONAIRE (muhahaha) 2. I'm the brother of one of the TOP 3 country music artists in the world 3. I had a 3-year career in MLB

The account of Joseph Smith's First Vision which occurred in the Spring of 1820 was recorded multiple times over the prophet's life. Each time he retold the event, details seemed to change as to whether he saw one of two heavenly beings, how old he was when it happened, and what was the central theme of his experience praying. Was the main intent and result of his prayer to receive forgiveness of his sins or an answer on which church to join? I don't get caught up in the fact he says he was 14 years old in one account whereas he says he was 16 in another. Joseph did not even record his experience until he was 27 years old. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to recall at what specific age I did a lot of things in my adolescence. As for the variations in theme, it's interesting the second account in 1835 only mentions how Joseph received forgiveness from the Lord. Nothing is mentioned as to Joseph asking or receiving an answer on which church to join. Does this bother me? Actually, no. It doesn't. I understand Joseph would find the need to focus on different parts of the experience to suit the needs of his audience at the time as well as his purpose in retelling what happened. Also, Joseph's First Vision is more credible to me considering the fact his first account includes him receiving forgiveness for his sins AND receiving an answer on which church to join. His first account is the most important account to state his intent all along was to know which church was true. He wasn't just a boy having a positive experience upon receiving forgiveness for his sins. However, I see how suspicions are raised when his first account doesn't explicitly state he saw two heavenly beings. Most readers would be led to believe he only saw one. I don't understand how his first account did not clearly state he saw two heavenly beings. Some say he was limited in his writing skills, hence the ambiguity, but I read the first account as it was written by someone capable of describing events accurately. He was an intelligent young man. I like how the church is very upfront with these different accounts. It doesn't try to hide the variations of Joseph's First Vision from the public. It's even posted on the church's website. The church states it's possible Joseph intended his first account to allude to two different "Lords" as Joseph mentions "the Lord" three times. I hold that at best as "a possibility." Even though I'm confused as to why Joseph's first account does not clearly state two heavenly beings were present, I take a lot of stock in the fact his first account declares his intent all along was to know which church is true. https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng 1832 Account (written by Joseph Smith) I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> a piller of light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to thir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is?] written of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father 1835 Account (spoken by Joseph Smith and recorded by his scribe Warren Parrish) I called upon the Lord for the first time, in the place above stated or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to pray, my toung seemed to be swolen in my mouth, so that I could not utter, I heard a noise behind me like some person walking towards me, <I> strove again to pray, but could not, the noise of walking seemed to draw nearer, I sprung up on my feet, and looked around, but saw no person or thing that was calculated to produce the noise of walking, I kneeled again my mouth was opened and my toung liberated, and I called on the Lord in mighty prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon <me>, and filled me with joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst, of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testifyed unto me that Jesus Christ is the son of God; <and I saw many angels in this vision> I was about 14. years old when I received this first communication 1838 Account (dictated by Joseph Smith and published by Times and Seasons) After I had retired into the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God, I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was <siezed> upon by some power which entirely overcame me and <had> such astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. But exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had siezed upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction, not to an imaginary ruin but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world who had such a marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being. Just at this moment of great alarm I saw a pillar <of> light exactly over my head above the brightness of the sun, which descended gracefully gradually untill it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two personages (whose brightness and glory defy all description) standing above me in the air. One of <them> spake unto me calling me by name and said (pointing to the other) “This is my beloved Son, Hear him.” My object in going to enquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner therefore did I get possession of myself so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right, (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the Personage who addressed me said that all their Creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt, that “they draw near to me to with their lips but their hearts are far from me, They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them and many other thing did he say unto me which I cannot write at this time. 1842 Account (published by Times and Seasons as instructed by Joseph Smith) I retired to a secret place in a grove and began to call upon the Lord, while fervently engaged in supplication my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded, and I was enwrapped in a heavenly vision and saw two glorious personages who exactly resembled each other in features, and likeness, surrounded with a brilliant light which eclipsed the sun at noon-day. They told me that all religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines, and that none of them was acknowledged of God as his church and kingdom. And I was expressly commanded to “go not after them,” at the same time receiving a promise that the fulness of the gospel should at some future time be made known unto me.

Even if it's describing the road, the fact it says "few there be that find it" means few of us will find their way to the Celestial Kingdom

In your experience, are other Christian faiths besides Mormonism as intent on praying to God to find out which religion is the one and only true religion of God? Or do they accept their faith based on their own studies and reasoning, and what makes sense to them? I have never received an answer that the Mormon church is the "one and only true Church of God." I have, however, had amazing spiritual experiences specifically related to the power of Priesthood in the Mormon church. Without doubt, I felt the Holy Spirit through priesthood blessings of comfort that were administered to me in a time of need. Since I haven't received a specific answer to whether the Mormon church is truly the restored church of Jesus Christ in its pure, unadulterated form, but yet I have experienced the Holy Spirit in other aspects within the church, I wonder if I can experience the Holy Spirit in other churches as strongly as I have in the Mormon church. What I really need is to study more for myself and ask God for the right answers. It's frustrating when I don't feel like I'm spiritually in tune enough to have received an answer yet, even though I feel like I've put in a good amount of effort over the years. Ultimately I end up attributing my unanswered prayers to my own weakness

You might be a Mormon if.... the thought of being accused of acting like some guy named Nehor is offensive

I like the thought of each world having its own personal Savior who shared His mortal existence with the inhabitants on the same world they live. The thought of an alien Savior is bizarre and impersonal to me for such an atoning relationship to exist. Now, the problem with multiple Saviors existing for every world out there is we know it was by the very Jesus Christ who lived on our Earth through whom God the Father created many worlds. So I doubt you would have a scenario where Jesus Christ from this Earth created another world in which another perfect being assumes the role of the Savior. That just gets too confusing. Another theory could be Jesus Christ not only lived and died in this world, but He relived the same experience over and over again on all worlds He created. Just the thought of our Savior experiencing atonement after atonement for a number of worlds innumerable to man makes me not want to support this idea either, although I suppose it would be equally enduring for our Savior to atone for all worlds in one lifetime, as it would be to break up the atonement to pertain only to the world Jesus is living on at the time.

The more I think about this topic in general, the more confused I become. God created Adam as the first man, yet modern scientific timelines place Neanderthals well before scriptural timelines, the relationship of that which was living in the Garden of Eden to that which was living outside of it, were Neanterthals human and did they have a conscience, when did Neaterthals integrate with descendants of Adam and does it even make sense that not all humans today would have a direct line to Adam, and how accurate is our measurement of time using half-life analysis? It's easier to accept the measurement of time of modern-day science is wrong rather than weave a rather detailed theory satisfying how pre-Adam Neanderthals fit into what we know from the scriptures. The only problem is accepting how bad our science must be today. If the temporal existence of man really is only a total of 7,000 years, the margin of error is VERY HIGH for modern-day science to say we go back as far as 300,000 years! I'd feel a lot better about this if it was only slightly off

Haha! This one made me laugh. Thanks for all the examples. You have a lot of good ideas

Thanks @anatess2! This is good information for me

I'll take the bus over being scorched any day. That Second Coming stuff is scary for a heathen like me

I shared this with her tonight. Thanks! @LiterateParakeet