Lost Boy

I haven't verified that stat, but if it is true, great. However, the murder rate in the UK certainly is not 1/160th of the US.

I got one of those. We supply millions upon millions of parts to the auto industry to about every OEM out there. These parts usually have a low carbon steel nut which is then plated for rust resistance. However, one OEM stipulates that we use the much more expensive stainless steel version. Nothing wrong with that, but then they requested cost savings ideas so I suggested going to the lower cost low carbon steel nut. We did the testing that their technical expert required and have over a decade of flawless record. However that expert go moved to a new division and the new expert came in and nixed the whole change stating that he could conceive of a failure mode.. A failure mode that hasn't presented itself in over 20 million products. Basically made stuff up to fit his narrative.

I don't think the church has any specific stance. We believe in sustaining the law. As in we are opposed to using guns to commit crime. From my own perspective, it really isn't the guns to blame. We have a societal problem where we let the mentally ill slip through the cracks. There is much hatred in our society and there seems to be a tone that violence is OK to resolve an issue. This really needs to be resolved. We need to do a much better job as society to teach peaceful behavior to our children. And to provide better mental health care to our citizens as well. Taking guns out of the US society is a near impossibility at this point. I think we are better off removing the "need" for them.

I can't stop you from thinking I am confused... maybe I am. I know exactly where you are coming from because I have already had that same discussion with myself many times. But yet, I still come back to it. It does amaze me how someone can go from, so you don't believe in the flood to so that most likely means you don't believe God is a God of miracles. And don't forget, I don't think God created the universe in 6 days either. That has a lot of scientific implications as well, particularly with how light from distant galaxies got here in six days.

That's a great story. But this is the way I see the flood. I see it as a customer asking you to design a square box that looks like a circle. You tell them that it can't be done and they come back and say so and so says it can, so why can't you? because square boxes don't look like circles. It is almost like the can God make a rock so big that even he can't lift it conundrum. But dressed much more elegantly. Can God put all the tens of thousands species of the Earth by twos, or 14s into a boat for a year, while he makes rain for 40 days that somehow covers the mountain tops and then within months drains all the water away? Now I could certainly see Noah building a large boat, putting a bunch of animals on it and floating out to sea and as he was floating out to sea he was watching the mountains and as he got further away from them, they appeared to be swallowed up by the floods when in reality he was just experiencing the curvature of the Earth. And then the story got embellished. From an engineering perspective, the ark containing all species of the Earth isn't a 50/50% chance. If all the species that exist today or at least most of them, they wouldn't have fit on the ark and wouldn't have lasted a year. Why do I have to analyse this so much?

That is where your understanding is wrong. I have no doubt that God has the power to flood the Earth. What I doubt is the history in the Bible. As the history really makes no sense. The atonement for whatever reason makes perfect sense for me. It is central to our religion and without it, we have no religion. Have you ever really thought what the atonement means? It was a God suffering for our sins to pay the price for sin to satisfy justice? Why couldn't God who is all powerful just with a wave of his hand, wipe out the debt? Why was a sacrifice needed? Did God the Father not have this ability? Am I asking a question that shouldn't be asked?

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as keeping it real. Showing potential investigators that even members have questions, yet they believe in Christ, have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, of the prophets. It is OK to not have a testimony of everything in the scriptures. You can still progress.

Exactly.... The Noah story itself really has very little to do with the doctrine, but if you now try to take it out, it turns into a mess. So you leave it be.

Maybe it is. But maybe the analogy is correct and Noah just doesn't matter all that much.

Is Noah central to his doctrine? I don't think so. If you remove the noah story, what changes? We have an area 70's in our ward. Maybe I'll bring up the question with him.

When you found out that Santa wasn't real, did your parents change their tune with your younger siblings (assuming you had some) or did they keep the story going? I just don't see Noah as that important of an issue to cause a disruption. The implications are large if they do. We have an area 70's in my ward that maybe I'll ask him next time I see him. It would be interesting.

No. Why not have it both ways?

So you wage war, and instead of killing the victims, you enslave them.... That sounds pretty Christlike. as for individuals that are incarcerated, that is hardly slavery. Slavery has always been used for economic reasons. Inmates are not an economic boon for anyone. They are a huge drain on society.

Thanks for the history. Were his views coming directly from God, or his own philosophy influenced by God? Can the bible have personal philosophy in it that wasn't necessarily inspired by God? I believe Joseph Smith struggled with this as well.

Yeah, I wrestle with that as well. Did it really happen the way the bible says or is it just a story and our leaders go along with it because they don't want to disturb the status quo? It would be a huge announcement for the church to come out and say parts of the bible aren't historically accurate. That could shake the faith of many members... Members who believe the scriptures can't be wrong. And why disturb the status quo on something like Noah who's story really doesn't change ones salvation? I mean I really feel like parents telling me santa is real. Whereas something like the atonement, I have a deep belief for.

Right? I don't know what the right answer is. I do know that there have been a lot of wrong answers and mine is probably among them.

Perhaps. Most of the help I get is people giving me guesses how it might have happened. Unfortunately, I guess, I am an engineer and pick things apart to the nth degree. I scrutinize everything.

I don't know the laws back then. If Joseph could have got in a lot of legal trouble, or caused the members to get in legal trouble, I can see why he said what he said. Did he denounce slavery? I don't know. Why didn't blacks have the priesthood? Why were they treated as second class citizens for much of the history of the church?

I have certainly explained what my hang ups are and I think they are significant. And I have attacked pseudo science beliefs that try to support the ark story. I have put out there multiple time that God could have done it and just left us no evidence. I like the gospel to make logical sense to me. And for 99% of it, it does. I view God as a very logical god. Everything has reason/purpose. I am lost on Noah and I know many others are too.

That was your approach. I continue to study and pray as well, but if I have an issue, I rather put it out there and discuss it.

An employed person has all the legal rights of the rich person. He has the right to leave at any time. Slavery is never right. It is having dominion over another. Did God really think this was OK? I doubt it. Rather, I feel this is the philosophy of an ancient writer putting in beliefs of his time. The system was absolutely evil. Just some were more evil than others.

Perhaps it does. But I don't think they are in conflict with any real important teachings. Nor have I said that what I believe is fact. I have stated that I have prayed about it multiples times and just have not gotten a testimony of Noah and the flood. The spirit has testified to me regarding many parts of the scripture, but not Noah. Does that mean I have my own religion? I don't think so. I think being able to have discussions about topics like this is important. And if an investigator sees, so what? I am not the only one that questions this stuff. Many on the forums do as well. Many members I know also struggle with this. You would like everything all nice pretty clean and neat. I would like that as well, but it isn't. I don't think it behooves us to hide that from investigators. Let them see the truth.

I certainly have a different take than you on the scriptures. You are able to believe a literal reading of the scriptures. I am not. I don't think that makes me any better or worse than you. I am not trying to tell you to believe the way I do. It would be nice to have some understanding of why I believe the way I do. Many members have wrestled with the same issues. That doesn't mean our faith in Christ is any different. We don't deny his power. We just believe some of the history may be incorrect. Is that really wrong? I don't know the answer to that. I am not really sure how I was rude or condescending to you, but if I was, I apologize.

I am sure you don't want to answer that one. The bible has a varied history. The old testament wasn't really assembled until about 200 b.c.. Which means you are taking a history of 2-3000 years that much was handed down word of mouth and tradition. Even the gospels that recount the life of Christ weren't written until 40-80 years after Christ's death and mostly from oral tradition. To me that leaves a lot of room for some traditions of men to creep into the scriptures. Some people can accept the scriptures as true they way they are. Some question things and doubt things. I am the later, but does that mean I am any less a follower of Christ? Are the hangups that I have really that important in an eternal perspective? Some people think that if you reject some of the bible, then you have to reject the whole thing. I don't buy into that. Would it surprise you and make you sad to find out that some general authorities have had similar hang ups that I have?

I guess you would be put off then. Do you believe slaves should obey their masters?