theplains

Hope not :-)

I've heard that mentioned in an LDS training manual too. “That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure through mortal maternity, was of right to be called the Son of the Highest” (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, p. 9). Thanks, Jim

Romans 8:14-17 says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint- heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." From what I understand of LDS theology, the joint-heirs of Christ are exalted beings (Gods), the sons of God, led by the Spirit of God. On the flip side. those not led by the Spirit of God are not the sons of God, and are not exalted. If they are not the sons of God, that would make them the children of the devil, right? Jim

Answer to question 1 - I'm not sure why someone leaving Mormonism leaves religion altogether, but this is not an improvement for that soul. Answer to question 2 - Since the Mormon 'Jesus' is said to be the first spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God, then that person who leaves Mormonism may "purposely" find the true Jesus outside of it. The Apostle Paul warned of those preaching a different Jesus. Thanks, Jim

Page 9 of Gospel Principles says, "Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body." I'll include a link that answers this question from gotquestions.org I understand the part about being born, but what does the term "begotten" mean in LDS theology since Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father in several scriptures (1 John 4:9) and then he is referred to as the first begotten of the dead (Revelation 1:5)? I couldn't find it defined on the LDS website https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/ or https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith?lang=eng Thanks, Jim

Various religions teach different versions of Jesus. For example, Jesus is only a prophet in Islam. For Jehovah's Witnesses he is Michael the Archangel. From what I have read in LDS literature, Jesus became a God. Jim

Hello, I'm aware of that quote. Part of it is also in the History of the Church, volume 6. "In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." source: http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/ I have an earlier edition of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (prior to 1950). In your subsequent posted, you asked if I was here to minister. I suppose we are all some form of minister when we share our ideas. As a non-LDS Christian, I don't believe Jesus was anything less than God so I don't think I could say he [Jesus] would ever need o imagine he would be worshipped. Getting back to the topic of "fulness of joy," how do you understand this passage from page 15 of the 1997 Gospel Principles? "We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy." Do you believe Heavenly Mother and Father were always Gods or did they receive their fulness of joy as a blessing for being exalted (becoming Gods)? Thanks, Jim

I didn't mean to give you the impression that I am only using Gospel Principles as the main source even though I was primarily quoting from it. I am also using supplemental LDS material to make some of my conclusions. As for the leap about God was once a man, I don't view it as a leap as it is mentioned in the 1997 version in chapter 47. "The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348). This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46). Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did." Two points in this section. a] Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was once a man who became God. This was removed from the 2009 (whether they did this because they wanted to deemphasize it some other reason is unclear. b] Heavenly Father is taught to have succeeded and that we should look to him as our 'role model' so to speak. Apparently, this man man had to succeed as did his Father before him (leading to the conclusion he wants us to succeed in becoming a God like him). Even though the key statement above has been removed from the current version of Gospel Principles, the "Heavenly Father is an exalted man" principle is repeated in many of the church's magazines. Examples: April 1971, New Era publication, "People on other Worlds" May 1976, New Era, "How to Gain a Testimony" July 1979, Ensign, "Line Upon Line" January 1989, Ensign, "The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith" February 2002, Ensign, "The Origin of Man" October 2008, General Conference, "God Loves and Helps all His Children" February 2012, Liahona, "Our Father in Heaven" From what I understand, please correct me if I am wrong, achieving a fulness of joy for our supposed heavenly parents was a blessing for their exaltation. For that, I was thinking of the 1997 GP passage on page 15 "We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy." The 1997 GP says, "If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received." The conclusion here is that Heavenly Father and Mother did not initially have a fulness of joy and later received it. "We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy." These are some of the blessings given to exalted people: 1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62). 2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23). 3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase. 4. They will receive a fulness of joy. As for the second query, I hope I answered it. I was just wondering if this man (who would become a God of planet Earth ever imagined he would be worshipped by his spirit children - a 'blessing' of eternal increase). The 1997 GP says, "All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). If the material I quoted is wrong, then do you believe the LDS Church is deceiving people by teaching them they can become a god like he became one? Thanks, Jim

I saw this on Wikipedia but not sure how acturate it is. "Whitmer moved to Richmond, Missouri, where he ran a livery stable and became a civic leader. After Smith's assassination, Whitmer, like Martin Harris, briefly followed James Strang, who had his own set of supernatural metal plates. Later, Whitmer organized his own splinter group based on his authority as one of the Three Witnesses and even later supported another group headed by his brother John. In his pamphlet, "An Address to All Believers in Christ" (1887), Whitmer reaffirmed his witness to the golden plates,[54] but he also criticized Smith, including the introduction of plural marriage. "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon, if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice," wrote Whitmer, "then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them.'".[55] Nevertheless, Whitmer is regarded by Mormons as an "enduring witness to the genuineness of the prophet Joseph Smith and his message."[53] Jim

It's lengthy, but you may be interested in the 3-volume set of Doctrines of Salvation. Thanks, Jim

Thanks. I see your rationale. Jim

The source material I'm using is Gospel Principles. I'm just wondering how it played out for the man who supposedly became a God and bore spirit children who came to live on our planet Earth. Thanks, Jim

I don't believe Joseph Smith's teaching that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God so I don't believe in the idea of heavenly parents and exaltation to godhood. But I do believe Christ has given us grace and his atonement gives us power in that death and sin will not defeat us. Thanks, Jim

When Heavenly Father was only a man growing up on his planet, what led to his ambition to be worshipped when he became a God and had spiritual children who would live on our planet Earth? Thanks, Jim

I had a question on this part of the 2009 Gospel Principles. "If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our Heavenly Father has received. (See D&C 93:30–34.)" The 1997 GP has "our heavenly parents" instead of "our Heavenly Father". "We learned that if we placed our faith in Him, obeying His word and following His example, we would be exalted and become like our Heavenly Father. We would receive a fulness of joy." The 1997 GP has "our heavenly parents" instead of "our Heavenly Father." "We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as He does (see D&C 132:19–20)." Is there any LDS teaching which shows when this man (who became a God) first imagined he would be worshipped by his spirit children on the planet we now call Earth? Thanks, Jim

I'm using the ESV for the following passages (... no particular reason). Genesis 1:12 - "The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Verses 20-21 - "And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens. So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good." After this, God plants the garden (2:8). Do you see chaos before God planted the garden in this creation narrative? Thanks, Jim

In former days, I think the stamp of the LDS Church was doctrinal books published by the "Deseret Book Company" (such as Articles of Faith, Doctrines on Salvation, Answers to Gospel Questions, The Progress of Man, and Lectures on Faith to name a few). Thanks, Jim

I think one of the biggest things missing from the BOM, POGP, and DC is the tearing of the temple veil at Christ's crucifixion. This is beautifully explained in the Book of Hebrews. Most of the Jews don't understand its significance and implications either. Jim

Thanks Wade. What gives you the impression there was chaos and a fallen existence beyond the Garden before the Fall? Jim

The premise was that opposition existed in all things like the Book of Mormon stated. This makes sense when one considers the two trees existed in the same moment so they can be said to be in opposition to each other. But the idea of an animal or plant being existent and non-existent in the same time context of the BOM verse seems unlikely. For example, an apple being in opposition to an orange when you have the choice is based on them existing, not "existing and non-existing". Thanks, Jim

From my Catholic days, it is taught that only Peter held the keys to bind and loose (Matthew 16:19) until he died and someone else took his place. But the scriptures reveal these keys were given to all the disciples (Matthew 18:1,18). "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." If someone has committed a sin against you, do you have the authority to remit that offender of his sin? Thanks, Jim

Thanks. Is there any part of the JST rejected by the main LDS group? Jim

The closest thing in the Catholic faith to spirit prison is purgatory. Until I was a Catholic, I would spend money on masses to relieve the suffering of my loved ones in purgatory. Since I had no assurance of when a person leaves that place, I felt guilty if I stopped paying for masses before I died myself (unless I had a strong gut feeling that my loved one already left that place). Since you don't know if your proxy baptism was accepted in the spirit world, you also don't have assurance that your temple work (like paying for a mass in the Catholic faith) helped. Jim

Why would he feel the need to confess to his Bishop instead of going directly to Christ? As a former Catholic, I used my priest and Mother Mary as my mediator, but no longer after being born-again. Thanks, Jim

How does the JST version used by the Community of Christ vary from the KJV used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? If I understand correctly, the JST is not the official version used by the church but not sure why. Thanks, Jim