inquisitive

Chelian not it makes sense. Well no it doesn't but this is crazy. No wonder people feel lke they are in hell. All these are things that a convert should be told. Its an over reach, its emotionally destructive, its man playing God and its a blindside when the person was never told that the church had the right to do this. This is so wrong, its almost criminal.

Wow 😯 no wonder I have been totally ghosted and abandoned I had NO CLUE any church thought like this. None! the church I came from had an LBGT ministry. I don’t identify but NOW I see a bit of what I got into. They think they own ppl in the 2018 and treat them according to one persons moral opinion. That would have to mean spying on people illegally to know what they do! Help me Jesus please no disrespect but you don’t know how odd this seems to a new comer it’s like a bad dark move from the 1940’s. They don’t even have the respect to return a call or text msg to tell me how to undo this stuff. so by trolling the boards there is full control this is scary stuff. Back to the question on suicides, hello!’

First @JaneDoe thank you for the cyber hug and the sensitivity. That was a second I did get some other loving soul reach out the other night. I had no idea the stake Pres who I did meet with and fell asleep while we were talking, (true story) he just flew in from, whatever........ Thank you for answering my questions but the ghosting is indeed going on but it is what it is. It tells me more about the need of one person to control then being a spiritual sister. If I knew the policies and the paramilitary like structure I would have known its not something I can do or want to do. Constantly being punished and judged. I know what's going on its ok no need to put it on here the church watches and reports everything to protect an image its fine. Thanks again, we can be two different people in the same church and see the world so totally different. Peace and love, Inquisitive.

@lostinwater did I just read that correctly, electric shock aversion therapy? Blink, blink are you serious? Who would authorize such insanity. Isn't some of these beliefs against the law? One might ask why is there so much anexoria, anything that has to do with control and perfectionism. Look around, you see very few girls overweight. How are they treating anexoria, this whole thing is seeming more and more bizarre. in answer to @anatess2 that would be impossible if your heart is where you are supposed to be. It is not my intention it is simply my opinion. However your jump to the defense of a church that doesn't need you or me to defend it or my comments could never move its unshakable stability. I am simply asking some questions and they are observations and opinions. Of course they are mine and its regarding a culture that seems very bizarre to a person that is trying to understand it, I am sorry you are not able to see that. Discussion is good it opens our minds, that's how we learn, by teaching and growing. Surly you can see how something's seem odd to an outsider?

A@NeedleinA we are talking about suicide right? We are talking about pain and mental illness do you not read that do you not see that? Immediately you blame the person who is obviously struggling (me) for what can I give back to the church. How can I make myself happier, why does the church have such a high rate of suicide? Nothing clicked, that's why people commit suicide because there is NO ONE HOME. You are blaming the suffering person who is stuck by saying its you, you are not doing enough, you are not working hard enough, not trying enough NOT< NOT NOT. If anyone is in pain or thinking about suicide just show up, listen and keep the blame and perfect judgements to yourself. Sadly you are clueless.

Help me out here. I never even had a clue that the church had the right to discipline a member. It made my stomach sink into a dark place like what the .......? Reading about how to take your names off the LDS official registry, and what that entails I read that the church no longer has the authority to......and I saw the word discipline. No one ever told me that I was signing up for anything other then LDS, baptism and trying to be a better person. That was what I thought conversion was all about. And then came some odd things in my life when i tried to leave. Not going to go on about it here, its the wrong venue. My question are real, i am in a very bad place. Spiritually, emotionally with trust issues and feeling very blindsided. What authority does the church actually have in a persons life? Isn't that over reaching the separation between church and state? What exactly is excommunication and what does that mean? WHAT is discipline and why if you have a disagreement with a member does the church ghost you and try and make you feel as the bible would say, separation from God is like being in hell. Wait up, the church is a bldg, and we have bibles and BOM and GOD in our heart NO MATER where we go? What gives certain people in church the authority to "ghost" a person so they feel alniated and alone. is that silent treatment part of a discipline process and am I losing my mind? Who does this to a person? and yes its being done. Please be honest and tell a convert what in LDS name is going on and how do you untie yourself from the lambs book of life and is it ever really possible? Why is it so important for the church to have a roll call official list of names? Am I doomed to hell if i leave? I am serious what is the churches rights vs mine and what did i sign up for?

Ultimate vision......as long as you have 70 year old men sitting on the seats of the ultimate higher authority, fogeddabout-it no change happening anytime soon. As i see it, the old school guard thinks you let one in it contaminates the whole gene pool, even though they are in, just closeted and no doubt suffering. Thats what makes LDS so unique, the perfectionism, trying to be God on earth. What i do see happening is if anyone comes out (as gay) the church ghosting the person (s) trying yet again to prove that to be a sinner separates you from God, so they make time on earth hell. Now that's just plain mean spirited and judgemental. where is the love? LDS is unique to its 1950's charm, its 1800's pioneer busy bee heritage, change is not something that comes easy or naturally. A better question is why would a gay person what to be LDS they will be shamed and ridiculed and never feel loved. Thats my opinion, not big on learning lessons from Jesus, like hate the sin love the sinner. Lying in the dark ages.

I just decided to poke around, so nurero typical is indeed very typical. thin skinned and thinks he she is slick and smarter then people who really HAVE experience with suicide. But you'rre smarter. Sorry you are the senior moderator. What do you know about suicide? What do you really kno Next time you are in a loced unit, with no one to call, you know not generations of family and a ward, let me know. Let me know how you worked your way out as a kid with no family. I am not going to put my business on this board, by now I know what I am dealing with. Proportionately the percentage of Mormons who work for the government is so high I forget I am in church and feel like I am in court. How dare they, share government misinformation with the people in the church. If the are going to share start telling the truth. Its against the law to bring in sensitive gov information with anyone, isn't that the separation of church and state? The church needs to decide if they want to play a court of punishment and mocking or have compassion and healing and become the LDS they profess to be. They need to be honest with the people and let them know if its a government agency or a house of God, it can't be both, if you think it can you are only lying to yourselves and the people. I forgot its more about who hold the POWER then who is well and needs help. We are going to MAKE SURE every bit of this last chapter of your life is pure hell, why because we can, we are GOD. Thats not Christian or LDS its being a show off and an over reach. Its sadistic and its cruel Its also not a sign that LDS is working for you, you seem miserable. Happy people are not into sadistic torture. You are as sick as your secrets and boy do you have a lot of those. yes, suicide can grow like a cancer unless there are TRAINED people to go to. I know the bishops do the best they can but some are just over worked and very young they just don't have the life experience of what it takes to deal with a person in crises. One more thing, there are them and there is us mentality, people can feel the prejudice. If there is one who feels slighted the whole hierarchy feels the same way. Own your own feelings not everything you hear is the truth. Why do you always protect the one with the most money? Its a house of God sometimes the people are last and the church punishing and manipulating is more important then healing and lessons of love and compassion from Jesus Christ. I never knew the church had the right to disciple a person are you kidding me? No wonder there is suicide, its a church not a court room. . The entire church shameing a person to leaving when they are in crises by "ghosting" them is an old psy-op manipulation tactic. Why because it hurts. Those are some of the reasons people commit suicide. I know someone is smarter and or will have to jump on board and condemn me., I have a secret God doesn't need you or I to keep score, He does very well without us. .

I am not going to apologize if you disagree, you are entitled to your opinion. That is mine. I would welcome to hear more, sadly we can't hear from those who have passed. I know what I am going though, if i didn't think i would get punished more in this time of need i would share then you come to a conclusion. One more thing, to those who have committed suicide, we know they felt isolated and alone. That there were no options, that it was the only resort to the pain and SHAME or anger they were feeling. There is something that is out of touch, its the powerlessness of feeling misunderstood or that your voice had no validation. Its not complicated each situation different but the feelings are usually the same. No happy solution, no one that they could share with no solution to the problem. Live in the problem or solution, to often the solution is to read a chapter in a book and thats not a solution. It may be the best they know but its often more harm then good. Its not an action its to passive. When a person is suicidal you need action not some passive read this chapter and see where you may have sinned, or worse yet have someones gossip believed.

People commit suicide for a few reasons, usually its feeling very angry and powerless. Or so hurt and sad there is no way out. The church isn't big on feelings they seem to thrive on blaming and shaming people. If you are hurting or in a situation the church will probably find someone who isn't qualified to teach them a lesson, how powerful the church is. Whats more important the power of the church or the person who is inside it? What is the power of the church its made up of people. Are you going to reach out IN LOVE to the member or have someone who never experienced what they are going though blindside them and all in unison turn their back on the person? People are afraid to talk they are afraid of losing temple recommend, they live in fear. One of the meanest things is to have the church all stick together and shame a person out. Its a church. There are also people that never worked outside the home, and their life has been kids the church and husbands money. They have no idea what its like to struggle as a single women. Yet they are given authority in the church. Sometimes you feel like you are being gangstalked, its a bad feeling. An over reach of power with this silent lesson. The message they are sending is you are useless and by the way we treat you, we want you to believe it. It many not be obvious to them but its being done. Then people are in denial and say, Oh I only wanted to help, help what them commit suicide? Monitoring everything that people say or write is another thing, let people be themselves you don't have to die because you disagree, however the church will make you feel that way. They all gang up. Thanks for the spirit its mean. Make up your minds you are a church or a police, why don't you trust people more, why the constant checking up on them? Thats control and its back stabbing. Those are some of the reasons feeling TRAPPED, Church should be freeing and feeling fed not powerless and in prison or perfect and never good enough.. Its not a competition, its life.

I can't speak about Mormon men, I never dated one. I did go on a dating site, and found them very rigid compared to men that are not religious. Was that the few old-er men on the dating site, we are all old and bitter who knows. They were very different. The culture is different, seemed much thinner skinned and easy to snap to judgement. Is that all religious men? I doubt it maybe its part of being untra conserative. The young men i see today seem like excellent fathers, they are very hands on and are good providers. I am in a big city and its not the average. Personally I think its ridiculous that men have the last word. Many women can't have children, other women wear their pregnancies as a badge of honor. All they talk about is their babies and being pregnant. A bit boring but its their family they have a right. I can't say I wouldn't be proud of my family I am sure i would be. Once, twice but when you start with huge families its a bit much. Sometimes I think life would be easier if women stayed home and were homemakers and didn't have to work. I honestly don't know how women work and have chidren, I give them a lot of credit its exhausting. What was the question, men and womens roles? They are all mixed up today, in the church it makes me feel invisible but thats just me.

I know a lot of Jewish people, grew up around more Jewish then Christians so don't get me started :). Beng a minority works both ways, its hard to be the odd one out. Without shaming and blaming, if you mean how to we find Jewish people open to conversion NOT! Out of the question they don't want to hear it. They have been some of the kindest and most wonderful people in my life and some of the most viscious. STRONG feelings to say the least. What I do like about them is you can talk to them, I see them as approachable, I have learned much from Jewish people. You can have differences and still respect. They know about Jesus, I think we are in a spiritual war, there is a lot going on in the world today. That would be NWO and Zionism, Christian Zionism. That might be a better question. How much do you really know about Christian zionism and do you support it as a religion or do you see it as a political movement. Those are HUGE and whats running the world today. I think most people don't undersand zionism, best to read up and learn. That is who is making the decisions for our future. along with Mormons and NWO, i could be wrong but if suffering is part of the plan, I get the plan. I support Israell because the bible tells us to as Christians. Does Israel need us meddling, no, will they take our help, of course. Is it a real democracy? umm up for debate, they don't allow you to bring out the BOM and prostize so there is a mutual respect as long as you don't cross the limits, they are firm on that.

Oh in answer to your question because thats Jewish tradition. Men on one side of temple women on the other. In reformed Judaism there are not women Rabbi's that would have been a no no years back. Like priests not being able to marry, each have their own set of rules. Does it have to make sense, you are asking the wrong person. I could never be in the military structure and orders are hard for me. When you had parents who were inflexable and brick walls as far as discipline thats not discipline its control There is a difference.

Hey I am a convert new to all this, because they were the Quarum of the 12? Not even sure I am saying that correctly. They hold the higest power in "the church" I call it The Supreme Court. Kind of looks like that doesn't it? It was a talk on pettyness, one said, "get over it" well if you can't talk, what you don't talk about will be repeated only in secret.

I am glad your brought it up. I just listened to one of the apostle talk about Satan. He is looking for MEN, SOLDIERS, PRIESTHOOD people to spread and speak the gospel of Jesus Christ. I would imagine that women are home with children. I find it very 1950's. When brought up to a senior women who I respect as a Mormon, I asked her does she feel like she has free agency? She was rattled and defensive. Of course I do!! Life like everything is all in the perception. Compared to churchs where women are ordained ministers and have much to add, its not equil, it obviously never was meant to be. Doesn't the bible say man and women should be equally yolked? What does that mean? I think its humiliting that women are supposed to discuss with men who have a calling often many years their junior very personal things. Some of the comments are ludicris. Does it bother me, yes, will it change anything in the church? Never, men hold the authority and women have a role, its just never spoken of. Really its to have children, there are not many women who do not have children. Its the church culture, I learned there is no sense in even mentioning these things the chuch is kind of a social bubble they just don't see it or don't care. It makes me feel invisible but its not about me, its about authority. Oh wait it was about God and Jesus Christ. Hmmm.

I think the key is there is no one around me. Only one lady was ( past tense) helping and that’s it, the rest don’t care, i have never felt so alone but watched in my life. No one care s. People are people they all said we are all trying to help you, I said no you aren’t only you made some phone calls, eveyone else is on vacation even the biship doesn’t return e mail or texts. This is the churches way of shaming a person they all ignore you so that you leave. You might not admit it but churches do that, they all kind of turn their back on you, and they all go in the same direction. When it comes to money you will see people run faster then ever. Yes my situation is unique, its about pride, money and truth. Back to getting help, its really a joke, they know I am unable to do this alone I keep getting sicker. They are waiting for me to die. I know that sounds harsh but its true. They aren’t helping me they are all enjoying vacation. It comes down to money, the richest people are the ones who seem to see us as having no value, throwing us away like we are garbage. Its ok, God sees that too. Just because you have more money or a higer position in the church doesn't make you better it give you power in the church structure. I think the hardest thing for me is to have to hand over all my power to a place I know isn't going to do anything but torture me. The darkness is unbearable. I can't put my finger on it but there is something so dark going on, its unbearable. I don't see happy faces and light I see secrets and no one here. Shaming a person so they don't come back just saves the church money. In the end its always about the money.

Well thanks for your answers, a dog? Haha I am being evicted with no money and no where to go. A dog. Ok! its not funny I am about to lose everything I have and have been stalked and harassed by a group of people for a very long time. Now that I am in this situation losing an apt I NEVER should have lost but where another lawyer was corrupted, sold me out. The judge was told, “they” another church had a place for me to go. Not true. I am a broken mess, I also had a very difficult childhood that I don’t feel anyone from the church understands or should even hear. Unless you work for LE it’s hard on the ears and brain. . This group of organized criminals that are making my life a daily living hell I find hard to believe the church is not able to know someone or get to the truth. They do t have to tell me just stop the killing machine. What they are doing is illegal if it were one of them o wonder if things would be different. I am very serious, it’s a way to torture people but never really touch them it’s a psychological game but right out of a Stasi handbook. That’s deep I know but there are a lot of people in the church that are in LE why can’t someone either speak to the biship or me and let me know when I am going to die. The pain is unbearable and people not all some older members know all about what I am going through and I get the stock there are no answers. There is always N answer, it depends on who you are and does the higher ups in church find you worthy enough to help you. I have no money selling things, been sending out resumes like crazy and nothing. I am also now quite ill from either or the conditions in this apt that I have been fighting or the cell towers and mold. Strange I was a functioning person before the 2016 election. Maybe it’s a coincidence but things got a lot worse for me. I need one person to BE HONEST and tell me am I goi g to die at the end of the month is that the PLAN of this viscous gov program I was put on or will someone from the church help me heal and stop covering up. I am serious this is my life there are no warm fuzzy dogs, there is daily suffering sabotaging everything I do and it’s to exhausting to go into. I feel they know so much more but will not tell me . I wrote the biship knowing he is on vacation but no reply. See the plan is for me to die if u look up gang stalking targeted individual you can read a lot. Where else can a person go but to. A church? who wouldn’t be depressed I M alone with no support system and the few friends I had probably not real anyway will not go near me since I became a Mormon. many reasons why. It hurts to be in a spiritual family not really understand culture but they understand things I won’t type here. It seems more of a psychological game like they don’t trust me, what’s there to hide. The clock is ticking and no one other then one women who is also going on vacation. i am being evicted and my time is up 8/30 and I have no where to go and everyone is in Iutah or will be. Prayer isn’t going to help Mormons always have a lesson of some suffering. No one has the right to play Hod from what I have been through and those that I have to forgive God has a wonderful place for me. What I don’t need is ppl leading me on when they know the truth but refuse to tel me. I really believe some vey dark things happened to me via Gov and no one will tell me. How can I heal? they pretend to care until the topic of money comes up then even I’d u want to work and never took a handout answer is we will give you food. How loud do you have to scream for help then hear a tape on suicide? If you ingnore pain no wonder members hurt themselves the aim has to go somewhere. What am I begging for? You are either part of the problem or the solution. One day hopefully the truth will come out my problem is I want to be validated in a church that will never validate me they will always believe the worst. Is everything a competition? Not Gods love. Suffering and abondonment there is no excuse for unless you are sadistic or do t like the person (me) I have many talents it’s a shame the church doesn’t see me and my true value. i need a miracle and if Hod works through ppl somehow the lesson is going to come first. That’s why sometimes licensed professionals are the leaders of churches they get paid and you are not always nothing them. There isn’t enough time for people’s needs. In a perfect world converts wouldn’t be broken maybe Hod put me in the church to test them as well. He works in strange ways. I am not going to get through this and the church knows it. I really believe that too is part of the awful plan. Maybe God wants me home. thanks for letting me share NO I am NOT going to hurt myself. God will never leave us it’s people who are messed up. i also know the church reads and monitors everything that’s fine it’s their website. I don’t want to start controversy no names were used no mention of City, state, country etc. .with respect but in the 11 1/2 hour and it didn’t have to be this way. I have been asking for help ( not $$) for almost 2 years . I wonder if anyone wanted to see me win.

That’s keeping it very basic and simple. Did you find learning about the culture and getting close to the people easy? Or maybe you were one that just fell into the culture no questions just understood what was offensive what was appropriate just like that. That has not been my experience at all. I find it difficult finding things in common outside church but I am not from a big family and do not have children. So much is based around family. It’s hard to change that’s all. I am not going to say anything else it’s much more then a church it’s a lifetime of fitting in as well

Dear Vort, I don't want to come on here and start conflict. I have learned many things from Mormons these last years of my latter days. That of course has a private and personal meaning. Lets just say, IF you were a convert, would it be possible that maybe there would be more people investigating you? Think about that, we are told (but i wasn't) to investigate the church for a while and see if its for us. I don't know any other converts that were told this, maybe they were I never asked at some point they made a decision did they investigate the church, thats an odd word to use as well, I will never know and it doesn't matter. I was not told and when I heard the word looked around like I was under arrest (that's a joke) Most of the converts that I see come in have quite a few personal problems and thats ok, I came in with a hand full as well. Did they get worse, umm lets just way my life became very different. I say no more, very, different. People have baggage and usually come to the lord in His timing usually when you are in some kind of pain. Most people don't even know much about the ism of Mormons when they convert, We were told the basics but then is when we begin to see how different the culture is. I say that with respect its different, that's all. I am learning to be very careful with words as people get offended by many things, when they are offended, someone always finds out. Its possible its out of concern how is so and so doing, like that. Its not always a bad thing but it feels like a probation kind of feeling, just "different" in church and it is never my intention to offend or hurt. Back to the culture of lets call it new-ness. Making friends with say another convert, you share stores of your past, things in common and in some way its bonding and freeing the differences. Its like us vs them in a kind joking way not a mocking way. Only to find out that this person is indeed a gossip and a trouble maker and oh did they start rumor and trouble. Ok we move on, there are quite a few people in every church that have only church life, again thats not a bad lfe but it can be seen as annoying to some. judgemental to others. I beg to differ with you, I was even told when I mentioned to a small group of my peers who I sort of trust, whats going on with the lack of privacy or reporting things. is that done like a probation time, like am I earning my way to.........I don't know its all new to a new comer. keep that in mind you don't know because there are years of church culture and family behind you. A newcomer isn't trusted YET or maybe never will be. It depends. One might say, its our culture to look out for each other, the church is a balancing act, we like to know that we are all having our needs met to the best of our ability. OR one might say, if someone is acting out, we need to know that to, we have a STANDARD as Mormons and we intend to keep it that way. Thats fine its ok, you just wonder how do they seem to find out who is keeping the standard and who is not. Simple question with a very complex answer. I have a different question for you, do you feel that you could openly ask questions or post true feelings and not be punished or made feel guilty in any way? Do you feel free enough that you had the personal agency to do that? or before you ask or post anything, do you worry if someone you knew saw that post, go back and mention it to your bishop or a women with more authority then you in the church? I know some things should only be discussed with persons who you trust and know every well, that's only common sense. How about this basic question if you and I am not suggesting but if you had a cup of coffee, and enjoyed it. If someone saw that can or bag of coffee and a machine at your home, and asked are you drinking coffee? Do you feel like if you told the truth somehow it would reach the higher ups in the church? Just wondering, the church will say they do it to keep the body of Christ clean and sacred and we know the rest. You might see it as, gee they violated my trust. How would you see that? just wondering and you can put anything in that box not just coffee. Its like a neighborhood policing to a new comer thats all and to a person from Utah or a small town would be totally used to the culture or would you?.

Hi Anatesse2, Thank you for taking the time to answer. I have so much going on I wish I could just blog the truth. Thats another thing, I find myself getting really angry and as a convert I see we are not supposed to get angry or if we do its some prayer or something we are not doing right. Sometimes we have a lot of things to be angry at. Regarding your answer about letting go, I have let go, there is NO ONE IN MY LIFE. Thats very hard. Its also very difficult for you to understand. To be alone and in a situation with no job, no money, and losing everything you worked for, well err, I don't know where to turn. For the first time, I find myself even pretty angry at the church, well not the church no let me say it this way if i were I woudln't write it here because I know that its all read and watched and I find that really manipulating. I know you are going to say its not done but it is, it may not be done to you but its done to me. So delimma is the people that are helping me, really can't help me. I am getting the run around, and I don't feel like anyone is being honest with me. I know that you will never see it that way or know what it feels like to feel that the only way out of this wonderful life is to be gone, its that frustrating. I find it really pass-agg to have the people that are supposed to help me all be on vacation. Its August I get it, people go on vacation but how is that helping me? Its like saying here is $500.00 now get a car and a job and a apt. Sometimes its to late to change, maybe thats my point. When i came in as a convert, I don't know what I was thinking, I ddn't know that so much of LDS was a way of life, or that the people were all so close but so hard to get close to. Or that I would still be alone but everyone would know what I was doing or thinking. Well not thinking but there is a culture of this reporting on each other or I don't know what it is. Its holding you close ( as in controlling) and if you need something or get frustrated, its saying well you can go. Just when you have nothing. Its mean. I don't fit in, I wish I did but I don't. I never thought that religion not just LDS but the other one as well could make me dislike gospel so much. I don't think that LDS realize how different they are from the rest of the world. Its such a different world, and when you are in crisis its even worse. Its getting tested and giving people your power. Not everyone is nice. There are those who run with it and play games. There are others who say one thing and do nothing. I think its awful to live in a culture where you are semi dependent on each other. I feel sick every day, I find it hard to believe that if people really wanted to they couldn't help me get out of this situation that I should never have been in anyway. I didn't do anything wrong, its being structured as if I did, but I know the true story, I had an awful landlord that harassed me for 3 years. Why the church can't validate that and know that I suffered deeply. I am still suffering, I just don't know whats up with the bare basics and minimalist games. I can't explain it or if i could would i be allowed to thats even worse. Why can't anyone talk? I feel like everything is a test and I don't know what I am being tested for or why? What happened to God?

You have to maintain a sense of humor, coming in as a convert in your 60's and never learning that, then hearing we teach self reliance. Uhh ok i never learned it there are a lot of things that I wish if obly and so on. Here is one where sometimes it is to late. People don't understand they think its easy to just go find something. Its hard to find something anything at 40 much less 60's. Its almost impossible without help. Hard to believe that in a ward where everyone is so "self reliant" to not have any clue what its like to have lived a life totally self reliant. That was the problem. Now trying to do things according to church principles i have never been so depressed in my life. Stuck and here is where some of the forgiveness enters. I should have been rewarded for all i went through, instead evil won.

Dear Anatess2, I get the point but I am in such a dark hour for the first time in my life not much is reaching me. I "get it" i know the concept of forgiveness, I know these concepts. I just feel and am very alone. Looking back over my childhood I had a psycho social they call it done for something, I get it. I have been through so much pain and hardship in my life, its a miracle i made it this far. Its not without understanding how come I had difficulty with relationships or how much harder a church with such "family values" is a very, very difficult transition. I find comfort in the old and N/T maybe change doesn't come easy to people but the concept of ONE TRUE CHURCH is alienating to me, there are many Christian faiths that I continue to learn from such as the women who was Catholic. She gave me scripture and stories of saints. Now my Protestant upbringing taught me, saints are false prophets. NO they are not, they are taught the bible, Joseph Smith would be a saint. Its all what we are taught as children its the initial programming. I am VERY careful NOT to rock to boat as a convert, I had no idea so many people are sensitive or really hurt by questions that are just questions. We always say examine your motives, if my motive is to understand, or say gee this isn't making sense, its not to divert the person from their belief. I have had many Jewish people say to me, do you actually believe that Jesus was without sin? You really believe this that and the other? I just said yes but I wasn't mad, i understand they don't believe its fine. That didn't sway my feelings its what people are taught. Its what they believe. If my faith and testimony is strong its going to be stronger with questions we answer our own. Sometimes I miss the simple one one on one relationship with Jesus Christ and God, not all these rules and things we have to go though to earn a place in the kingdom, that's promised to us, I am the light and the way anyone who wants to enter the kingdom goes through me. We could go on and on. I know why so many wars are fought In the name of this or that. Religion the word of God a place for peace but so much pettiness, so much death and torture. You would think we would have learned something but its worse now then ever. Only today its electronic. Do we fake it till we make it or do we every really are accepted as a convert? Depending on your age and how spiritual you were before you came in. None of us really have answers, we have the bible, we have common sense well err sometimes. We have a conscience unless we are constitutionally incapable of being honest with ourselves. Yes they are among us too. God sees our progress not perfection. Who was it who said, the person who forgives the most is given the most, or loved the most by God. He wants our heart, Satan wants our mind. I have never seen a truly spiritual person that had an easy life., its like being book smart or street smart. The streets, (experience) teaches lessons the hard way, books teach from obedience and patience, its a different kind of learning. Life, religion, God, Jesus, friends, relationships, judgements are all part of the chapters that makes a persons life. A person who has many blessings can be ungrateful and empty and a person like the story you told me can be rich, rich in love from a fish or the sharing or caring from one human to another. I just dislike someone making decisions for me based on their judgment I dislike people doing that to anyone. Thats a caste system based on ego and the great "I am" like somehow you were not worthy to have the material things you had. its no ones business. It really is no ones business, or to judge a person though gossip and jealousy i repeat jealousy and determine that somehow, you must need to repent somewhere. Let God decide who is repenting and who isn't its not up to us here on earth to do that to one another. Yet so many of us do. iF I am wrong then tell me but i think its not about the person fitting the religion its about the religion fitting the person. I might not be saying that right but it should feel right. i never thought about does God reward blessings, I just thought about my love for Him and not wanting him to clip my wings if that also makes sense. Now i am learning an entirely different approach. I don't think God keeps score, He loves us unconditionally, saint or sinner, He sees our heart our heart break, what we know and what we don't know. Like the child that was never taught gets total forgiveness, for they never learned choice. We are all children in His eyes at different stages of development, trying based on our entire circumstance in life. Some of us never had love, oh a cookie here or there but not anything near caring and love. If I had one wish it would be that the church would lighten up sometimes. Stop being so militaristic thats not materialistic and let God be God and allow themselves and others to feel, and question and validate them as a whole person. Not slip them into a slot of worthiness based on accomplishments. We have accomplished much it just didn't show on the outside, what is exactly what we are talking about. A person can be in a financial jam or a life crises, but its really due to the greatness of Gods work that got them there. You just need a new pair of glasses. I found a poem that is beautiful don't have the time to type it now but its about how this journey is to big and one seed at a time. In the end we are workers not master builders, ministers not messiahs. We are prophets of a future not our own. DISCLOSURE I never meant to offend anyone If i did it was not pro this or that, just an opinion that is mine.

Dear MaryJehanne, I read that post on forgiveness, its true, its anger at the powerlessness. Its anger at the injustice, its anger at the fact that I am never going to get back on my feet and the church knows that. Its an implication that somehow I am not worthy or that I am not meek or that I am not humble in this awful crises. Its reminders that "the church" is only volunteers ( a way of saying you are beginning to wear people down.) Its not understanding the culture. I repeat its not understanding the culture and when I make a mistake, have everyone report me. That's humiliating, like there is one adult in the room and its not me. Its being torn apart from the inside out, its the betrayal of people that I trusted, Its the secrets and no one sees it but me. Its being in the worst possible situation and having someone compare their worthiness to mine. Its not feeling the love and spirit the way I should be. Its feeling manipulated instead of empowered and no one gets it. Its trying to hard to "get this new religion" and going backwards and feeling like part of the process it to break a person down. That's not God, that's man playing God. Its making me feel so devalued like I left my common sense at the door. Its being alone when everyone is from a huge family and probably never knows what its like to face homelessness with no money and no couch. Its having no love, its asking for a person just one person to be my beneficiary should I die ( YES ITS PAID FOR) and be told they will probably be out of town. Its feeling so persecuted. Its saying its not about the money and ITS ALWAYS about the money. Its people pretending to understand when they are making millions. Its expecting a person to do the impossible, its knowing where the chips are going to fall and time is not on my side. Its the pain of knowing that there are people within the church that could easily exercise their authority and pick of a phone and make it a little easier and not doing it at all. Its playing dumb. Its watching myself die and knowing I have so much more value but will wind up dead or in the streets because there is a LESSON. There are not lessons at 65 you don't break a person at my age you kill them. Thank you sister for the link to the real "saints" Paul has always given me strength, they are powers of example but I am a women and its not natural to be so alone. How can you be in a room and feel absolutely alone? you can when you don't understand the culture and probably never will. That's not a disrespectful comment its from the eyes of a convert. We come in hurting often then really are lost, there is a room full of people but we have no idea how anything works, and they have no idea how it looks to us. Thanks for listening, its 2:00 AM and I just can't do this, its not about proving how strong you are, I did that a long time ago. This whole program you don't win, you play a game, that's not why I come to church, I come to hear the word of God. I came for fellowship. I guess this is the trade off. If I die tonight, the city state gets my things because I can't find someone or the person I had as a beneficiary lost contact. That's the only thing I care about now, is will I be buried with my Godmother.

Hi Jane, I didn't see that, I did see i posted an ad for a possible live in situation and every nut in the world has gotten back to me with "ideas" Yep, all my life stopped regarding $$ and trying to "change" for the church, now i will be homeless and broke but a place in the higher kingdom, (shacking head) more scared to live right now then die.Who thinks of this stuff? No disrespect but what good is the next life when we can't feed ourselves here. Back to my original question should i ask to speak to a higher person in my ward, never heard back from my biship.What is the protocol to ask for an apt with a ward Pres I asked the biship, everything answer is ask the biship. I feel like a child in school, something so wrong is going with this ask the biship, how much can one person who gets a calling do? They have jobs, and kids and wives and lives of their own. I am beginning to believe "the church" just wants to get me out of their hair there is only so much they can do; I don't see this ending well at all. It would help if eveyone church included was honest with what is going on. I feel so stuck at the end of the day, I came in the church to late in my life. Not a happy Mormon. Is that ok to say? Everyone is gone its August they are all out of town or in Utah, I get it its summertime. Things just seem so strange, it literally feels like my entire support system has ghosted me. I am so tired of hearing be strong when no one else is. I think it should be replaced with try not to be angry, right now you have every right to be furious. Thats how i feel just saying.