MadHatter

I am uncertain of this. The Catholics have had many changes over the last two millennium. Most recently, Vatican I & II ushered in many changes. The Episcopalians recently had a major change as to who can be Bishops. Ect.... Perhaps we can says that our's is the one true fluidity, but we cannot say we are the only ones who change. Teaching structure and approaches may be dynamic, but the actual doctrines and beliefs have never changed, worthiness requirements for missionaries and other priesthood offices have gotten stricter than before. certain things have changed but our core doctrines and beliefs have never changed, we are not a changing church. we just comprehend more as we go along ans so we seem to believe more things than before but it has actually remained unchanged.

Hat, I presume now that you are getting your "act" together, that the Temple is on your schedule in the future. Be sure to tell your Bishop that you would like to attend a Temple preparation class, If there is none, at least get the books and learn for yourself. It is important that you have some idea as to the basics. And remember that the Lord gave us symbols to learn by. Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection and for the remission of sins, The Sacrament is a symbol to remind us to remember Christ, and the endowment is basically an interactive teaching session where many symbols are used as teaching aids. And don't try to remember a lot of what happened after your first time through. It takes a few times to begin to get your bearings and really start to grasp things. Thanks Tex, Yes I am preparing to go to the temple with my wife at the appropriate time, she's getting baptized in February, and then when we go to the temple for those things at the appropriate time we will be able to do them together. I've heard some things and read others and i do have a basic idea as to what to expect at the temple. There is a really good book to read by Matthew B. Brown called "The Plan of Salvation - Understaning Our Divine Origin and Destiny" the best LDS doctrine book i have ever read, it goes from the Origin of God through the creation and Fall all the way to death resurrection and exaltation, temple worship and ceremonies. It's at Deseret Book. Of course - and this goes without saying - the evidence for you position is non-existent. Funny that you mock others for having faith when your own position is faith based. We professionals call that hipocrisy. BIZ: Well, what evidence is there that the Bible is actually literally true? Ding Ding Ding! None! What evidence do YOU have that my position is "faith based"? What do you mean? Maybe you should believe in ALL the various world religions mythologies. After all, if it is written down in some religious book and declared to be scripture by the religious/spiritual leadership, it MUST be DA TRWU WERD O" GAWD!!!!!! Is "hipocrisy" something to do with HIPPOS? WhatEVER do you mean? LOL No, we are told from day one to think for ourselves, just because a religious leader (including any of our Prophets) said something does not mean it is true. There is no Hard proof that the Bible or the book of Mormon is true in terms of science, only supporting and circumstantial archaology. but that is not how God operates. It is not part of his program. Even if you held the golden plates in your hand and were allowed to touch and feel them and flip through the sheets of gold pages, you would still not believe it any more then than you do now. that is the plain truth. the ONLY thing that testifies of the truth of god and the gospel Principals is indeed the Holy spirit, the comforter. that is the only way you will know for sure that anything is true and real. We are not mindless drones who follow what our prophets say without question. We are always encouraged to build up our own perfect scructure of truth through dilligent study and prayer and to find out for ourselves. Same goes for scripture. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Not a single member of this church Believes the Book of Mormon or the Bible to be the word of God unless they themselves had recieved that testimony through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Read Julie B. Beck's tlak int he Ensign this month, "Mothers Who know" It's great my Wife loves the talk.

I agree that we are here to gather knowledge, and to learn truth and gain experience. and to humble ourselves, we have to "first we must descend below all things, to ascend above them" - Brigham Young. Perfection will never come in our mortal state. it can only be achieved through the grace of Jesus Christ if we repent by him. We had to do this though to feel, know, understand, and realize both ends of the spectrum of all truth knowledge and light. We could not appreciate Light without being in darkness, nor could we appreciate Immortality had we not understood mortality. indeed we had to descend below all things and leave our Heavenly Father's presence if we were at all to know everythign there is to know in the universe.

So do you believe the dark-skinned people will become light skinned? I thought that was no longer doctrine. Am I mistaken? Please let me know as I would like to know for sure. How do you know? It is highly unlikely that a daughter of two dark-skinned Native Americans was lighter skinned than they. Also, in the picture of the "twenty Lamanite missionaries," it's only common sense there would be different skin tones. This would have been true in any picture taken of Native Americans, or any other large group for that matter. However, I believe it is wrong to attribute racism to President Kimball's remarks. His love for the "Lamanites" was very powerful. I suspect when he said he saw lighter skin tones, there weren't really any differences, but that he saw them because he wanted to; however this wasn't bigotry. It was because he was so happy for them as he said" "The Day of the Lamanite is nigh." In President' Kimball's mind, there was no greater blessing for them, and he was excited for them. This was not racism; it was joy. Elphaba Yes i agree with you that it was Joy on his part that inspired his words. it is promised in the book of mormon that thier skin would become lighter, and from what i have seen in my wife's family, there is a boy, Rajah, he is 3/4 Filipino, he has blue eys and blonde hair and looks as caucasian as you can possibly get. explain that? same for children of the same generation in her family. I have no doubt that President kimballs words are true, but the idea of it being doctrine is iffy. I don't believe it is a doctrine because it is not taught in our church. Sure, things are said en-passant and speculation here and there, prophesies coming true. Yes, i see Presiden't kimballs words coming true. being doctrinally binding? i think not..

It is a couple of things. The reason they put things in those terms back then was because of the time. It may be the fact that this pheonomena occurs because it was foreordained by God. what he is talkign about really does happen genetically. i see it in my wife's family. the youngest generation of children are very pale-skinned compared to thier older ancestors. my wife's family is from the Negros Island in the philipines. the reason they named it that is because the spaniards came over and they were such a dark skinned people they thought they were black. now is not the case in the past few generations, thier skin has become lighter. His words are not racist, maybe somehat tactless, but his observations are correct. The problem is that people of our time try to apologize for what they say rather than the way they said it. and also we don't put emphasis on certain things like that nowadays because it brings up questions liek "are the LDS racist?" wrong, our father in heaven loves all of his children and treats them equally. Our prophets do not contradict eachother, but it has always been stated that one remark made by a prophet on a certain occasion does not constitute doctrine. The only doctrines that are in this church are from multiple prophets. and even then we are TOLD to pray about it for ourselves to truely now if it is correct. Nobody is infalliable, not Gordon B. not the Pope, not Moses or Noah, and not even Joe Smith. they are all men, they are all of the flesh, they are just as susceptible to mistakes as anyone else in the world. Mightr i add that it was under the Direction of the Lord that Spencer W. Kimball extended priesthood authority to all worthy men in the church regardless of race or color. Aphrodite, Ruabien - I hope you pray about things sincerely and realize the truthfulness in the statements made by prophets. even if we don't expound upon them because of certian implications nowadays. if ever you have doubts, pray about things, let the spirit guide you and always lead you to know the truth.

I wonder if anyone would be interested in having this pinned as part of our doctrine?

Thanks you guys, i didn't mean to be an attention grabber or antyhign, i'm just so happy and greatful formy wife and her decisions. We live in Kent. we will probably be sealed in the seattle temple if we are still here in the next couple years.

She told me she was sitting in relief society a couple weeks ago when a sister was bearing her testimony, and a few other women taked about some experiences. That she almost cried because she felt so greatful for the gospel and the church. Nothing else could have brought me more joy right now. My wife has been taking the missionary discussions the past few weeks and she has been reading the Book of Mormon every day for the past couple of months. and she set a date for baptism. February 9th!!!!! We have to wait till my time is up so i can baptise and confirm her a member myself, Both her and I want myself to do it.

Here is a really good way to get rid of kidney stones. my mom did it numerous times and it completely dissolved her kidney stones. 1 12oz can of Asparagus, blended. 6 pack of coca-cola (real stuff not imitation, and not caffine free either) the asparagus is basically 100% fiber. this will be your scrubber for your system (figuratively). it will smooth out the stone and allow it to pass easier. the coke is acidic, and dissolves kidney stones like crazy. working in combination with the asparagus it acts like a roto-rooter for your urinary tract. drink the asparagus all at once, (i know some of you may not like it but do it anyways) then drink as much of the coke as you can handle in 1 hour. the caffine in the coke will open your blood vessels and allow better blood flow through your body allowing for the fiber to pass through easier and clean out the grit. then after the hour drink nothing but water.

The reason we pray to God, is because he is our father, he gave us everything we have. We pray in Christ's name because without Christ's Atonement we can not return to live with our heavenly father again. and untill we are judged and have been cleansed from all sin, we will be doing everything in Christ's name. Christ payed for our sins with his atonement. In essence, he owns us. we follow his commandments because Christ is the one who will judge us and be there to take the punishment for our sakes so that we may return to our heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost does many things. He testifies of truth, he comforts, he guides. but most importantly, when you are baptized and recieve the GIFT of the Holy Ghost, you are then able to partake of the atonement. The gift of the holy ghost is also called "baptism by fire" which literally means just that. the Holy Ghost cleanses your spirit as if by fire when you truely repent. Baptism by immersion is the death of your old self, and reborn as a child of God. it is in the similtude of death and resurrection. The baptism by fire, or recieveing the Holy Ghost, allows your soul to actually be cleansed from sin. Those are the main roles of the godhead.

I have no idea where where you get the idea that the fall of man was sprung unknowing on anybody or that all covenants were in effect befor the fall. If all covenants were in effect what purpose is there in mortality? If you reference Alma chapter 13 you will clearly see that those that kept their first estate were "added" upon in their second or mortal estate and those that keep their second estate will be added upon in the resurrection. There is a direct relationship to the covenants kept in one estate to the covenants that are added upon in a following estate. For example there are two kinds of covenants introduced during temple worship. The first kind is the covenants that apply directly to the estate in which one currently lives. The second kind are covenants that will not have effect until some later time. I am sorry but on this forum this is all that can be said. It is important to note that covenants do change. As you stated Baptisism is a covenant of this estate and cannot be made before or after mortality. When the fall took place (just like death) the time of certain covenants has ended and the time for other covenants based on our choices is now available. The Traveler I must admit I have very little knowlege of temple worship because i went inactive in my teens and only recently got my act together. I agree with you that things are "added" not changed, which i stated in my previous post. The fall did not alter any covenants, it just allowed more covenants to be made. I did not say we made the covenants, but we were made aware of them before coming to this earth. and that the purpose of mortality was to give us the experience needed to become a God, at the risk of loosing our eternal life and glory. and also to gain a physical body like our fathe rin heaven, once perfected has the potential to be glorified to a divine being.

Bold above is mine..... Traveler, I have followed your discussion with Madhatter closely and must admit that it leaves me in confusion also. My understanding parallels what Madhatter has posted, although in some areas I think he has made some conclusions by extrapolation (which, neverless, may be true) instead of hard doctrine. I think that you are saying above that if there were no change (or changes) in the covenants made during their premortal existence between the Father and his spirit children, then Adam could not have set the stage (via the "fall") for their entrance into the fallen mortal world by taking on bodies composed of mortal elements. If I have this right, would you point out which covenants made in the pre-fall period had to be changed before the fall could take place? We are all trying to understand the point you are attempting to make. Thanks, Old Tex Thank you for your interest: There are several covenant changes that took place and had immediate effect upon all mankind and the structure of heaven: First: The divine relationship, status and rights man (as spirit children) had with the Father were made null and void. Second: The Son became our covenant Sovereign, Third: Our right to and heir-ness to divine priesthood of the Father was lost (in reality this is a more detailed explanation of the First item). These covenant changes were necessary in order that man have a mortal (blood) experience. This is why blood was required by covenant in order to have a just covenant with the Mediator G-d, Jesus Christ – the G-d of the Old Testament (or Old covenant). Prior to Jesus the blood covenant was a type and shadow that was completed (or fulfilled – also called “made perfect”) by a divine and eternal blood sacrifice. This change was not just the choice of Adam but of all the children of Adam that enjoyed the divine presents and protections of the Father. Those that refused this covenant change established their covenants and priesthoods through Lucifer and established a kingdom in which Lucifer was Sovereign. Those that accepted the plan of a change in covenants and priesthoods established The Son as their covenant Sovereign. In essence, all the covenant children of the Father and heirs to him were set on courses that removed them as citizens of the Kingdom of the Father (which is represented in the Eden Epoch as the Tree of Life). It is interesting to note that the symbolism of “Cherubim” is a plural reverence and not a singular reference and many seem to think. Although this has important repercussions to covenants and the eternal scheme of things few seem to understand or care about this symbolism. The Fall of Man is a gateway concept to all the covenants, doctrines, commandments and ordinances included in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – yet it is one of the most miss-understood principles of religion addressed in our modern times. The Traveler I have to disagree with this, on that fact that you think it was "sprung" on us about mortality. I am very sure due to scriptural refrences in the D&C and BoM that we knew full well the plan as we were being raised as spirit children, we were taught the same gospel there as we were here. Just as we wait till we are 8 to be baptised, we are made aware of that coveneant before hand. I'm very sure it was the saem in the pre-existence, that we were taught about it and learned what mortality would do. then we were given the choice to either accept it or not. those who didn't followed lucifer and htose who did came ot earth to gain bodies. the covenants remained the same throughout the eons, but we had to wait untill we were prepared to take those upon ourselves, there was no "change" and the Fall was not a mishap in which God had to send someone to redeem us because of the "mistake" it was all planned out for us from the beginning.

Line upon line precept upon precept is for our mortal understanding of the gospel, I;m sure it is also the same in the pre-existence. Mortality itself was a covenant that if we keep it, we will gain our exaltation as a reward. I;m not sure what you mean by "Type and Shadow" We began to covenant with God before the earth began, baptism is one of our mortal covenants. and is the first step towards greater mortal covenants which we will take with us after we die. The covenants did not Change, they were just added upon. line UPON line, not "line instead of line" meaning as we make and keep covenants we are given the privilege of making and keeping more covenants "line upon line" Baptism is in the similitude of death and resurrection. Our mortal covenants existed before the world began but we could not take upon ourselves those covenants because we were not mortal, nor were we in a fallen state. it was not just "for the fun of it" to see people get "dunked" in water or whatever. It has been the plan all along, to take things one step at a time, Just as our Father in Heaven once did.

Thanks for all of your work. That is awesome about your wife!!!! Will you be the one to baptise her?? Onyx Thank you again, although i cannot take all the credit, the Lord allowed me to find an amazing and wonderfuly insightful book "The Plan of Salvation - Understanding Our Divine Origin and Destiny" Yes, i will be the one to baptize my wife, February 9th, It's the weekend before my birthday. and just after the time my bishop has said that i would be worthy to.

The Fall was a foreordained event. It was not some "unforeseen mishap" The prophet Joseph Smith states that "the great Jehovah contemplate the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence.... He knew of the Fall of Adam.... He comprehended the Fall of man, and [also] his redemption" The Apostle Peter taught the saints of his day that Jesus Christ "was foreordained before the foundation of the world" to be the redeemer. 1 Pet. 1:20 There would have been no reason for this fore ordination unless it was known in premortal times that mankind would need to be rescued from a fallen state.The Book of Mormon teaches that everything was done in the Wisdom of God. The plan of salvation could not have gone forward without the Fall. 2 Ne. 2: In other words, there would have been no progression. Elder Orson F. Whitney said: Elder John A. Widrose likewise sates - President Brigham Young remarked that it was his fullest belief that the Lord's design for Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit in the garden.

What happens to a child who dies before it reaches eight years of age? The Joseph Fielding Smith had a good answer- The following statement is found in an article in the Ensign, June 1981, p36 Elder Bruce R. McConkie asked - "Will children [who die before the age of accountability] be married and live in the family unit?" He answered - "Certainly. There can be no question about this. If they gain... exaltation, it means that they are married and live in the family unit." - Ensign, April 1977, p5

Thanks Onyx, Someone did a small description on religiousforums.com in the LDS section, and i accidentally hijacked his thread because I wanted to expound more upon it. It's been of real interest to me lately because my wife has been taking the missionary discussions and set a date for baptism.

Yes, it is a great discussion on this matter. Children under the age of 8 are saved in the lowest tier of the Celestial Kingdom by default. They are saved because of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Those who died without law will have the opportunity to hear the gospel int he spirit world, but, it will onyl be taught to those who either had no knowledge, or were never taught about the gospel plan on the earth. Those who DID hear the gospel plan here on the earth, but rejected it, will inherit the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms. those who rejected the gospel having been taught it will likely not be taught it in spirit prison. We are here on the earth to be tried by faith, not by knoweldge. it is according to our works and our knowledge that we are judged but we are to use faith in making our decisions. thatw as part of the plan. IT was a huge risk coming to this mortal existence, but one that all of us rejoiced over and gladly accepted to come down and have this opportunity. Even though there was such great risk in it, we still did it ebcause the possible reward was so great. we all knew what we were getting into and we gladly accepted it.

I Was in a hurry so maybe not. Point. The world (it conception and creation is a very intergral part of G-d's gospel. Neither the world nor G-d's plan can exist without the other. Yes, in fact God's plan existed before the world began. The planning and preparations for the Earth were part of his plans indeed. But, God's plan is a never ending cycle, His works will not cease when this world ends, nor will his plan, he will continue his plan with a new world, a new earth with different spirit children, and also those of us who make it to the celestial kingdom will be part of our own plan for our own progeny which will more than likely mimic God's plan. The point Being his plan ahs always been hsi plan, with or without this world. Perhaps you are in part correct - but the Father was the only one that was parpared for, understood and participated in the marriage covenant - Beyond the Father this covenant did not exist nor could it exist in the pre-fall heaven. God has a body of flesh and Bone, which means he was once mortal and once resurrected. Which means he has a Heavenly Father. and so forth and so on, His life is eternal and his works is one eternal round, who know how many eons and how many Heavenly Fathers there are. Not exactly - the creation spoken of in scripture was itself the result of a covenant. One of the interpertations of first of Genesis is not "In the Beginning" but "When G-d first established his covenant G-d created the heavens and the earth" Certain covenants were indeed formed as part of the creation of the earth. the Covenants given to those who were foreordained to become Prophets and leaders of God's children. covenenats were made that if we keep our first and second estate that we will recieve Heavenly Father's glory and eternal life. I think your use is a little out of context - Did not Jesus testify that the sun is made to sign on the wicked as well as the righteous? D&C 130: 20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— 21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. my point is that laws and covenants were made before the world was thought of and brought into existence. The fall of man did not bring to pass a New covenant in heaven. Only on this earth for those of us on this earth. the fall of man had no effect on heaven aside from allowing those spirit children to obtain bodies. the covenant was already made. the Fall of Man was neccicary and planned, because also redemtion was planned, Salvation through the great mediator Jesus Christ. it was all part of the plan. "Creation, Fall, and Atonement."

No no, I was not pointing anyone out. If i use the terms "you" or "us" or naything like that in this subject i really mean "everyone" sorry if it sounded liek that. Also, it is not exasperating to discuss my religion, in fact I love it. i like good questions.

Resurrected beings do not have blood, thier spriits are whole and able to quicken the body of thier own accord, our physical perfected bodies are "flesh and bone" not "flesh and blood" Procreation s not only possible due to transgression. if Adam and eve had procreated they would have created spirit children. mortal procreation is for us to mantain the family stucture and for all of those spirits whoa re waiting, to obtain bodies, which is why God has given commandments regarding Chastity. It is a sacred gift for us to bare and rear children. and having promiscuous sex and engaging in sexual perversions is a mockery of it to God and his plan of salvation for the family.

The commandments were given to be contrary to one another. God gave them two conflicting commandments and made them choose what to do. It was part of the plan because Adam HAD to fall. otherwise he would still be a perfect and innocent being. It was part of the plan. in the book of Mormon, it says "Adam fell that men might be; Men are that they might have joy." God could not force Adam to sin because it would take away Adam's free-agency. God created their bodies to be perfect because God is a perfect being and does not create imperfection. God created Mankind himself, Christ created Everything except man under the direction of God. Then God came down and did the last part himself with Christ there.

It allowed those spirits who were wating to recieve mortal bodies and experience mortaility. The reason I posted this thread is because I believe many plain and precious truths are glossed over and missed because the saints have lost the art of pondering the scriptures and other spiritual guides given in these Last Days. I will add some thinking for pondering. I would submit that there was a great change in heaven and even in the very foundations of that wonderful kingdom over which the Father resides. I submit that the law which governs that great and wonderful kingdom was radically altered and a new and everlasting covenant was established. A covenant that placed G-d the Son, even Jesus The Christ as the governing G-d of the new order to which all men (and women) are governed. I submit that even before mortality the laws and covenants of the kingdom of heaven established Jesus as our Mediator with the Father. And in mortality Jesus was established by law and covenant as the light to the “world” by which all things of eternity and righteousness are discovered, learned practiced and sealed upon those that prepare to receive the same. The Traveler When the world was created all things were put into place and the "Godhead" was formed, each member has vital roles to play and would have the ability to choose. Christ's Gospel is God's gospel, God's Gospel has existed EONS before the world was even conceived of. The everlasting covenant of marriage has been in place before God existed, otherwise he would not be God, he would have been a Ministering angel had he not abide the everlasting covenant of marriage. Covenants were formed as part of the creation, which Abraham saw in a vision when God showed unto him the Intelligences that were formed before the world was. Those covenants would be given in mortality if people did what they were commanded to do. There is a Law irrevocably decreed in heaven in which all blessings are predicated on, it is by obedience to the commandments in which we are given blessings. this is the nature of a covenant. AnthonyB, No Adam and eve could not procreate because they were not mortal. they could in nowise produce mortal bodies of their own accord. They had to sin, to become mortal, to have the spiritual death enter into the world. I do not know what about the animals, and in particular, it does not matter. All animals are given simple commandments in which they obey based off instincts. The scripture actually reads in the K.J.V. of the Bible as ".....greatly multiply thy sorrow, and thy conception." This scripture shows that their fall led to being able to create life. They were naked in the garden and "were not ashamed" they did not know of sin, or of lust, or of the true nature of joy, love and happiness because they had never experience pain, misery, or sorrow. We are in a spiritual death state, we are cut off from the presence of our Heavenly Father, baptism by "fire" (receiving the gift of the holy ghost) in essence revives that spirit, allowing it to come back into the presence of our Heavenly Father. It is baptism by fire in which our spirits are able to be cleansed through repentance and the atonement of Jesus Christ. in essence it is a cleansing fire to our spirits. Blood, is the mortal life force, our spirits cannot sustain our body. Blood is corruptible and decays and dies. metaphorically you can think of it as blood carries our sins physically, our spirits carry them spiritually.

I love this subject It allowed those spirits who were wating to recieve mortal bodies and experience mortaility. It had an effect on Adam and his progeny. Adam was created with a perfect body quickened by the spirit. when he partook of the fruit it caused death to come into the world. They did not "sin" they "transgressed" the difference is that a "sin" is done knowing the consequences. and a "transgression" is done not knowing. therefore it brought spiritual death, and blood then flowed through his veins to quicken his body. His spirit could no longer quicken the body because of his spiritual death. The blood that now coursed through his veins was the only thing keeping him alive, hence mortality. Then Adam and eve were able to bare and conceive children. Everyone, it was part of God's plan from the beginning, He knew it woudl happen because it was the only way for us to make our own decisions. it was not forced upon Adam to sin. he was given two conflicting commandments, Multiply, and not partake of the fruit. He had to learn right from wrong himself. But God will never make anyone sin, it has to be his own choice. Why would God allow Adam to make a mistake liek that? because of the Atonement. It would negate Adam's transgression. The only thign that happened because of the fall was Mortality. Yes it was nessicary, It was all God's plan from the beginning, Satan did not know he would be playing into Heavenly Father's hands. "....I am more intelligent than they all." - from the book of Abraham. no plans were altered it was all put in place. Salvation itself. is technically free, it's right there waiting for you to partake of it. but the only free gift given to all nomatter what is resurrection. Man can be glorified to Heavenly Father's Level if he follows his commandments. i suggest reading my post on the degrees of glory for a completel answer to this. To get specific we need to be in a Temple. Basically there are sentinels guarding God's kingdom. after we are resurrected and if we recieve the Celestial Glory we will have the knowledge for those things in order to pass by them safely.