AnthonyB

Hey PC not all evanglelicals are premill, my childhood church was largely amill, and although it has always made me an minority at many of the churches I have attended I have never been excluded for my views. Where is America headed? Well for better or worse no nation can be Zion until Jesus himself is ruling. So I imagine that it somes ways it will get better and in other ways worse.

Star, I would have thought the LDS idea of repentance is fairly similiar to general Christian one. However I have at times read some LDS express doubt or maybe dislike for death bed or last minute repentence. Whilst I will concede that a life of sin will generally harden a heart, I sitll believe that God calls to even the hardest heart or sometimes saves some from the very edge.

Why not have both an older couple and a younger couple work together to present the material?

I hearby nominate PC as Bishop of the non-LDS LDS.net ward, I'm sure people will sustain him.

How could you forget their first name, they all seem to have the same strange LDS name....Elder. (Actually knew a girl when I was in my teens, who meet some LDS misso's in my home town and was really amazed they had the same first name.)

PC, Some observation on the Barna article. Arminian groups scored higher then Calvinists groups. (LDS fall closer to Arminianism then Calvinism) I was surprised that they were surprised by the high number of evanglelicals in the churches of Christ. Although they probably failed to identify that many non-denom churches come out the same movement. Vort, The questions were asked from an evanglelical perspective, so naturally they wouldn't fully fit LDS understandings. However the LDS idea of gaining a testimony and the Evanglelical idea of being converted do intersect.

Norah63, I don't know if "early church power" is a great criterion for being a genuine Christian. In the Sheep and the Goats parable the goats were casting out demons. There are people who are "spirit filled" but unscripitural. There are people who are biblical as can be but totally lack any spiritual aliveness. I think the best mark of a Christian is love but not soppy boundaryless love, that would let people drive over a cliff without warning them but heart wrenching compassion that aches for God's best for others, even if they cannot see were there path will take them. In the words of the now old Christain song.... "Don't ask me for answers, I've only got one. That a man leaves the darkness when he follows the Son."

We are encouraged in the NT "to greet on anothr with a holy kiss", not to mention the whole foot washing thing. Are people really going to get to heaven and have Jesus reach to hug them and say, "No thanks PDA is inappropiate in heaven".

Dravin, Thanks for your response. The above quote seems some way from permitting divorce just because of inactivity. Not being LDS, the impression I get from some posters is that an inactive partner will stop you getting into the Celestial kingdom, so you need to "move on" to find a partner that will get you there. I suppose I see covenant keeping, no matter how hard the road, as a key aspect of what God wants to develope in his children.

Is there modern LDS revelations that trump (or alter) Jesus statements on divorce? Whilst I attempt to be gracious to others, my reading of Jesus in the Gospels would be that divorce except for very specific exceptions (eg marital unfaithfulness / adultery) is sin. So divorce is out of the question for me, no matter how tough things got. I partly see it that God sticks by his covenant with us, so in the same way we should stick by our convenants with others.

Realizing how emotive this discussion is in the US, I was loathe to get involved. However someone listed Isreal as an example, so I will point out Australia as a counter example. We had 4 major massacre leading up to the Port Arthur one. At that point the government (a conservative one) stepped in and banned all semi-automatic, automatic and greatly strengthened the gun laws. We have not had a single massacre (4 or more people) in the last 16 years. However given how well permeated the US is with weaponry, I don't see this as an option. I don't see how your society could be disarmed of all military style weapons. If I lived in the US I think I would want my boys in a school with a very secure boundary and a well defended and secure entry point.

I want to know whether the location of secret base 27 in Calvinball was ever revealed.

Hardly a maid, she was about 2,700 years old when they married.

Sorry but seeing JR Tolkein just looks sooooo wrong, I know its pedantic but it is JRR Tolkein.

Norah, I think there is still a payday for sin. Your comment reminded me of the Steve Taylor song "Sin for a season", which talks about the consequences of sin, even ones that God may forgiven. One verse has a woman, who has drunk too much, hit a father and son, and "Now the years run together as her guilt goes wild, She still sees the body of an only child"

Vort, From my reading of Acts (I'd agree with Anatess description), it was a voluntary contribution, which they chose to do but then was deceitful about it. It was the deceit that was at the core of their problem.

Has anyone else ever controlled a dream? I have sometimes been aware of a dream not going in a direction I liked and managed to decide to change what happens. Doesn't always happen but has happened enough for me to remember doing it.

Vort, Too be honest, I find it a very confronting story. It is one part of restoring the NT church, that many would not be keen on. Lessons for today... 1) Don't lie about your Christian actions 2) If you make a commitment to God make sure you follow through with it 3) Christian should seek to use our wealth and other blessing from God to help others in the church. Clearly God no longer seems to strike people down on the spot today. I have often wonder on the couples eternal fate, hopefully they had not fallen fully out of a covenant relationship. In some ways the judgement may have been merciful. If left to go on in this manner, what little faith they may have retained would have ebbed away. For me better to die, then live a life giving up the faith and walking further and further from God. I can't answer what someone who believed in "the perseverance of the saints" (ie once saved always saved) would make of the story. I would presume they would indicate that they were saved despite the judgement or were never saved in the first place.

Why have a national holiday, why not vote on Saturday? (That is the convention in Australia). Strictly speaking you can't have mandatory voting if your going to have a secret ballot system. Australia has mandatory enrollment, and mandatory turn up and stick something in the box, what is on the paper you put in the box is private. The upside to manadatory "voting" is that there is no money or effort spent on getting out the vote. the downside is elections are usually determined by the 10% of population least interested or informed about politics. Then there is preferential voting......

Alhtough I think it unlikely Jesus was married, it wouldn't particuarly worry me if he was. However I wonder if Jospeh death would have historically had an impact (i have no idea). Is there any social comment etc on whether oldest jewish sons without dad's were more or less likely to marry? Did the rumours of his possible illegitimacy effect his prospects?

Vort, Dn't u mean u h8 txting. thx

Why do you think your Mum will object to your being baptized? Is it that she is concerned you'll be become a religious freak? Or is it that she has a connection with a differing faith and objects to your becoming LDS for that reason? Honesty is generally good for any relationship but sometimes "discretion is the better part of valour" and giving it time to show that your still you (and maybe even a better you) might be wise. God bless as you are seeking to be a better disciple of Jesus.

Firefly/Serenity was brilliant. Gattaca Blade Runner -Prefer the director's cut version Blake's Seven -Despite the appauling effects, first sci-fi show I remember that wasn;t full of heroic people.

Vort, Whilst I can perceive and understand your anger at those who deliberately distort LDS views to malign what you believe to the true gospel message, do you really think that most people who find that statement shocking do so out of malice? Despite its origins in malice, I think that most people who hold it do so in ignorance. I can see that if anyone understood that LDS views on Jesus and Satan, that it would remove much of sting of the concept. However you haven't addressed the logic flow of how an ignorant person may inadvertantly follow the logic listed above and be gobsmacked by it. My attempt at an answer to an ignorant person would be (if I where LDS)... We believe that God the Father was involved in bringing about all beings that we know about this includes Jesus, angels, ourselves and even Satan. Jesus was so immeasurebly in tune with God, that he shared being devine with Father God. The Bible in Job refers to angles as Sons of God, it also refers to people as sons of God and so yes even Satan is a Son of God, albeit a fallen depraved son. They are brothers in the sense that God is the Father of us all but we agree with you that are as utterly unalike in personality, nature or glory.

Song about "Babylon" (from a TC named Steve Taylor), captures well the theme that Babylon isn't a particular human organization or church but the system that entices men away from following the call of heaven.... Infidels In a broken time Our fathers bled the ground Chained and bound Castaway Should the remnant die? My hopes were growing numb Overcome She bewitched With a Siren's cry She beckoned, "Come and learn" Is there no return? CHORUS Babylon Born in your walls Bred in your will Captive until I heard the heavens cry Babylon This is goodbye Aftershocks And the sorrow grows Some make their slow descent Some repent Rescue me These idols lie I cannot bear the shame Make this desert rain (CHORUS) Make this desert rain... (CHORUS)