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A few comments to add regarding Moksha's post... It was interesting that the church made an exception for one of my cousins that joined the church about a year after I did. They let him go to his girlfriend's ward, which is on the other side of town, since his girlfriend and high school friends were in the other ward. I thought that was neat that they were able to accomodate him, as he was worried about it when he was first baptized. Anyway, a quick update regarding my situation. The new elder's quorum president told me he's impressed with my EQ lessons and he asked me if I would like to become the EQ secretary and go to teaching every 4 months. I told him I would be honored. Its a good feeling to be appreciated by your fellow priesthood bretheren. So, I guess the situation at the ward is starting to look up. Again, thanks everyone for the support.

Well, looks like we have a lot in common. Sorry to hear about your bad experiences, I know how much it hurts. You'll be in my prayers. Good luck in the army.

There's a huge difference here, Jesus did not have to rehearse his talks or mannerisms, he was perfect. He probably knew the teachings by memory.

MorningStar, I notice sometimes when I read something to a relative that I'm sharing the gospel with, even when I've read it a hundred times, I still somehow choke up when I think about how I was at one time where they were and had not yet heard the restored gospel. It must be the Spirit's influence. Moksha, I agree. I think that the focus should always somehow be on the Savior. That not only makes a good talk but shows that we are Christians. Jesus Christ is central to our day-to-day activities and lives. The focus on this talk was the idea of wishing you could become an angel so you could preach repentance to the world. She said that we should use every opportunity we have in our lives to proclaim Christ. Definitely a good topic. AutumnBreeze, Good points. She did use a lot of real world application in the talk, so that could be part of the reason they wanted her to deliver it to 2 wards. Its kinda like how we have all heard the "Preach My Gospel" lessons hundreds of times but when we share it with a family member that has not heard the restored gospel we still get choked up because we remember how we felt the first time we heard it and that we were at one time in their position, hearing it for the first time. I think remembering the special Spirit that we feel at these times can influence our emotions, and it probably did with the woman that delivered the talk. The meeting with the president went pretty well. I made a post about it in the "petition to switch wards" thread. Thanks for the encouragement and prayers! HiJolly, Ya, this has happened to me before too when I am teaching EQ lessons. Once they had long announcements and then had the choir leader teach us a hymn to sing during sacrament meeting. It left me 10 minutes to do a lesson that I thought would be 40 minutes. Then there have also been times that I didn't have much feedback and got through with a "40 minute" lesson in 15 or so minutes. I guess that part of being a good speaker is being able to plan for any situation that may arise, especially the unpredictable human element of any speaking situation. I hope that I get to give a talk in a sacrament meeting one of these days, that sounds like a great experience. LoudmouthMormon, President Hinckley always has a good sense of humour. That's interesting that they use a teleprompter. I imagine that the speakers all write their topics beforehand and give them to the teleprompter operator. I can imagine that the older speakers, some in their 90s, can't see it very well and are speaking mostly from memory. Its remarkable how well they do for their age. Wasn't it Joseph Wirthlin that started having a nervous attack on stage this last conference, but was somehow sustained by the Spirit to be able to finish his talk. It is just amazing the power that the Spirit gives these men. They must be in good shape and have good memories. Avatar4321, Don't be too hard on yourself.

Ya, because it was a very touching message. It could definitely stand alone on its merit for being one of the best talks we've had this year. So, I agree, its good to take it at face value.

I finally had my talk with the stake president on sunday and it went pretty well. He told me he was going to look into everything, since the only stuff he had heard was what others had told him. He thought I had told him the whole situation before, but I told him that I didn't. He also told me that I shouldn't be held back at church by anybody, and that if I ever felt like I didn't have enough to do to tell the bishop. He said jokingly that most people are trying to get out of callings. He also told me not to worry if some at the ward don't like me, he said it would be better to just ignore it. He did say he would have a talk with the bishop and that they would monitor the situation more carefully, especially the family with the girl situation. My bishop came to me later Sunday and told me that if I was ever unhappy with my current calling to always feel like I could come to him. He said that the current EQ presidency had not said they wanted my calling to change. So, I guess things are looking up. Thanks everyone for the prayers.

I had my appointment with the stake president on sunday approx. 90 minutes before my ward sacrament meeting. The stake center is about a 5 minute drive from where my ward meets. When my grandmother and I got out of the stake president's office we decided to look around at the special events posted in the hallway when the service going on in the chapel caught our attention. There was a lady giving a very powerful talk on Alma 29:1 called "If I Could Be an Angel" or something like that and it was very touching. The speaker even cried at several points. I regretted that my grandmother and I did not have time to finish listening to her. I told my grandmother that we better leave so that we don't miss our own sacrament meeting, despite how much I wanted to hear the rest of the talk. It was very well delivered and I loved the message. My grandmother and I drove over to the building where our ward meets and sat down and attended sacrament meeting as usual. We took the sacrament and then the youth did a special number. Then, the bishop took the podium and informed us that we were getting a special guest speaker assigned by the stake. The woman came up to the podium and it was the same woman my grandmother and I saw deliver the talk at the stake center. The talk she gave was not only the exact same topic, but was word for word verbatim. She even started crying in the same spots and reached for the kleenex exactly the same way. My grandmother's jaw dropped 10 feet and she almost busted out laughing. My grandmother then whispered to me, "Are they kidding?" Actually, having worked in large protestant ministries before, it is not all that uncommon for them to rehearse sermons or even whole worship services because they want the whole thing to go off without a hitch, especially if the service may be taped or videotaped. However, this is the first time I've heard of it in LDS circles, though I always figured the conferences were rehearsed, since they had to be perfect for live tv. Anyway, I just thought this was kinda amusing.

gvr, Interesting situation. It sounds like they can be hard on institute teachers at times. I wasn't aware that the program varies regionally. I'm glad to hear that the church is working on improving the program. It sounds like they're becoming more aware of the potential problems with it. I think with the invention of the internet people will be getting more and more apologetics saavy as time goes by and will expect more openess in the curriculum. So, I would guess that we will be seeing major changes in the not-so distant future. Iggy, I've had to sub for the GP teacher sometimes and I teach EQ once a month and have had people come up to me afterwards, some of which are recent converts, and they tell me that I was the most open teacher they ever had and that they wanted to learn more. For example, one guy told me he had been through the GP class twice but he wanted some of the more controversial issues addressed for him and nobody had the answers. I know people like this man would definitely benefit from an evening study like this. He used to ask some pretty controversial questions while I was teaching about issues such as blood atonement, salamander letter, tongues, the church's history in racial matters, and since I've been a regular reader of FAIR, FARMS, and MADB I knew a few good answers to what he was asking. Now, if he would have gotten the same info from an anti it might have weakened his testimony, especially since he told me the salamander letter situation was making him doubt the church. While an apologetics class wouldn't address all the anti material, it would give a good enough foundation to fortify people against the controversial issues when they come up. So, you have a good idea here. I know a lot of people that would jump at the chance to attend a class like this.

Ya, I agree. I think that's why after talking to everyone on here I'm leaning further toward the idea that it would be much better as an independent evening study instead of a class during 2nd hour.

Excellent post. I have to confess I only read the first paragraph when I wrote my last post. You make some excellent points here. I remember the day I was at the CES was the day after the PBS special and several said the Mountain Meadows Massacre thing caught them off guard and they wondered why their parents or no one else told them about it. I remember the teacher just told them that it was a sad part of our church's history and it did happen, and he said that the church had not officially given the order for it. Ya, I think the individual CES and church teachers could go a long way by putting all the cards on the table, so that when the material is encountered it will be much less of a shock. I think the church may lose a few members at first but in the long run it will keep people in when they encounter people like the street preachers on Temple Square. After reading your post all the way through I think I may like to visit a few different CES buildings in some other areas and observe the classes. It sounds like some may have substance. I don't think the church should tell teachers to hold anything back since it will only hurt the students testimonies in the long run. Its just like the reason you tell your kids about sex and drugs so that they don't hear it from another source and perhaps get wrong information.

A couple comments here...It would be nice if the CES offered something with material like this. However, I attended the nightime institute classes for a couple weeks at the local college in my area, and the class had very little substance and was mostly just the teacher reading a passage out of D&C and then breaking the class into groups to study it, which was mostly rowdy teenagers (16-20ish) that horsed around and talked about music, parties, etc. and very little about the material. However, I suppose you can't stereotype the whole CES based on these people. I met a MADB poster for a pizza party at an institute building in Sacramento (an hour from where I live) and they were much more down-to-earth and not "snobbish" like the ones in my area are. Second, I have been barred from attending anymore CES classes or singles ward due to the false accusations leveled against me (about the girl) that were mentioned in the "Can I Petition to Switch Wards" thread. Also, I don't see how the institute classes could be accepted for any kind of college credit since they said that you got credit just for attendance. I clearly remember the instructor saying that all you had to do was have less than 5 absences in a course and you would get full credit. I'm sure a course at BYU is much tougher in that you take exams and earn a grade. I asked the people I was there with if there were any homework or exams and they said no, it was only pass/fail based on getting fewer than 5 absences. The class I was there for was D&C by the way.

That's cool that there are evening study groups in your stake. That's one thing that I think the protestant churches do right when they have Bible study groups. I think in the next few months I might try to submit a curriculum for review to the bishop and see what he thinks. You guys gave me a good idea, thanks.

A little update, the stake president's secretary got back to me today after about 5 calls the past week. He apologized for how long it was taking and gave me an appointment to see the stake president on Sunday before church. So, let's hope that it does some good. I plan to tell him everything that has taken place starting with the girl situation all the way up to the way I've been treated lately and the EQ situation. I hope everything goes well. As always, everyone continue to keep me in your prayers.

I can identify with you on this one. Back when I was a MacArthurite I had a church member that was following me around in public and would come up to me and scream accusations at me. He was mentally ill as well. In this case I reported it to the church (it turns out he had been reporting me to church officials for things) and I explained that he was getting violent (kicking me in the shins while telling me I was going to hell, etc.) and the church took measures to make sure the harassment stopped. That might be a good idea in this situation, I don't know. The bishopric and stake presidency should definitely be notified as well as the police. Some mentally ill people can get violent and its best not to take any chances, IMHO.

These are some good ideas. I was thinking of mailing the idea to SLC but the bishop might be a good person to give the idea too first. I don't know if I would be the most qualified to teach it, but the temple prep class was taught in the evenings at a member's home so I suppose this could be one idea. Loudmouth Mormon, Good scripture references and good points. Ya, I'll have to give you GP teachers a break.

The purpose of the class would not be to provide something to base a testimony on or the basics of what the church teaches. I agree, nothing in a class can give someone a testimony of the gospel. That's why I suggested that the class only be open to endowed members that have been through GP, GD, and FH already. These people should have a good testimony and be able to move on to the apologetics class, simply learning "evidences" behind what they already know is true. I agree with you though that one danger of a class like this is that people could be taking it secretly hoping to gain a testimony because they lost theirs, only to be disappointed later. So, in that respect I guess I agree that it could become a potential drawback.I notice at my ward that many people do not go to sunday school at all. Some just stay out in the halls and visit until 3rd hour (priesthood/rs). Many go outside or sit in the lobby chairs and talk. I ask a few why they usually don't go to sunday school and some say that they can't sit that long, they've heard the material over and over already, etc. This might be something that would pull people back in for 2nd hour. So, even with some of the drawbacks, it could help invigorate the sunday school program.

I think some of you are still misunderstanding me. I think the ideal textbook for such a class would be "Hidden Treasures of Knowledge" by Stephen Morgan. It could easily be a 52 week class that would cover the 22 chapters of the book, allowing 2 weeks per chapter, maybe 3 weeks for the longer chapters, with the chapters redivided into lessons by the curriculum dept. Here's a good idea for a course that would be 10 units long and last a year that would utilize the Hidden Treasures book as a basis for organization. Unit one would cover a history of the patriarchs and the patriarchal line as well as the history of the House of Israel and what we have that supports that history. Unit two would cover the remnants of the Adamic language in Hebrew, the Creation of man, and the Atonement. Unit three would cover Egyptian concepts like Abraham in Egypt and the early Egyptian temple rituals as well as the Book of Abraham. Unit four would cover temples in ancient times as well as modern and their characteristics. Unit five would cover ancient documents that support scripture, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and various apocraphal literature. Unit six would cover Jesus Christ and his teachings to the disciples both before and after the resurrection including temple ordinances revealed following the resurrection. Unit seven would cover the United States and its role in the gathering of Israel and end time prophecy. Unit eight would cover the Great Apostacy, Reformation, and Restoration of the church of Jesus Christ from the early church fathers to the reformers to modern day prophets. Unit nine would cover the Book of Mormon and evidences of its antiquity. Unit ten would be on the modern day LDS church from Joseph Smith to GBH. Even though, as someone already pointed out, it covers quite a time period, when you have a book like Hidden Treasures that has it all already summed up, it would be quite easy to teach a course of apologetics over a one year period. They could make it open to endowed members that have been through the GP, GD, and FH classes already. I don't know, just an idea I have. I can dream, right?

My suggestion for the class wasn't to address any criticism or any anti material, but to learn history, what we believe, and why we believe it, along with any line of defences/reasoning behind each belief. Criticisms of our church as well as any antimormon material would be beyond the scope of the course.

To my knowledge FARMS is owned by the church and is part of BYU, FAIR/MADB are not. However, I wasn't suggesting that the church incorporate these but that they have a basic apologetics class for the purpose of learning why we believe what we believe and to provide answers in case someone asks. For instance, the doctrine of exaltation in the early church, other doctrines from the early church, mesoamerican studies, Nibley's Egyptian studies, etc. can be incorporated along with various defenses of different doctrines, church history, scriptures, answering investigators, etc. It may be a fairly informative class.Also, the purpose of learning the apologetics would not be to build a testimony on them, especially since apologetics change constantly. The purpose would be to provide members that already have a strong testimony with answers to questions nonmembers may ask, to "strengthen" testimonies and faith, and keep members updated with the latest research. I think it would be a good class for those that wish to dig deeper and explore. With the church getting more and more publicity as of late I think the class would be a wonderful way to better equip members with what they need. It is also a good way to fulfill this scripture: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/15#15

ztodd and morningstar, thanks for the encouraging words. A little update. I had a talk with the former EQ pres. that was leaving the ward. Even though they released him from his calling because of the rumors, he told me Sunday that he has decided to stick it out at the ward, even without the calling, and he and his wife and kids are staying in the ward no matter what. He even took his house off the market. I admire his courage and willingness to not let anyone drive him away. We had a good talk Sunday after church and I'm really happy that he has let his testimony in the truthfullness of the gospel win out over the misdeeds of a few. It would have really been ashame to lose this family in the church. He is also very supportive of me and has been a great friend. I am still waiting to talk to the stake president and have called his secretary for an appointment. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Anyway, thanks everyone for the prayers and kind words.

I was in the Gosepl Principles class on Sunday and we got out a few minutes early so I talked to the teacher for a few minutes. I told him that I would like to suggest to the church's curriculum department that they start a class on Apologetics to be taught during second hour at church. Already we have Gosepel Principles, Gosepel Doctrine, and Family History available for adults during second hour. What the teacher told me surprised me. He said that there was no way we would ever do that because we are commanded to not practice apologetics. He said that apologetics involve attacking other people's faiths and we LDS are commanded to be tolerant of other faiths and not attack them, so LDS are not permitted to engage in apologetics of any kind. I then tried telling him about FAIR, FARMS, and MADB and he said he had never heard of them. We all know the flaws in these statements, but you would honestly think that a GP teacher would know better. Apologetics does not involve attacking other faiths but supporting your own with evidence. Anyway, I still think its a good idea though. An apologetics class could benefit all LDS.

Hasn't it been pretty much substantiated that JS was anti-slavery and helped many African Americans like Elijah Abel. Also, BY gave a talk against mistreatment of slaves.

I actually agree with you, and when it doesn't work like this is when things aren't working right. We are in an organization where everyone volunteers to serve the Lord I would actually be honored to serve as a home teacher, I wish they would call me to it one of these days, that would be an excellent opportunity for service. I would also like to have a home teacher over to visit me. I think its sad the way the EQ Presidency situation worked out because they should realize this is a voluntary position to serve the Lord and not a position you play politics with. So I hope you don't think its just me coming up with these ideas because this is the way people have been talking at the ward the past few weeks. I honestly hope God humbles their hearts and they realize what having a calling should mean. My grandmother and I were both real sad to see this family leave the ward over the EQ pres. position because we really like them and had even been over to their house before for BBQs. The ward is really losing a good family and I really think its sad. Anyway, thank you again for keeping us in your prayers.

Just to give a little update, I found out that my elder's quorum president has been having similar problems at the ward with the leadership and gossipers, and he resigned and moved out of the ward last week. I'm hoping the situation will improve though. I'm just glad after talking to the now former elder's quorum president I realize that its not just me. I had to cancel my appointment with the stake president last week because something else came up that I had to do. They said they would try to find me a new appointment but a week has gone by and they haven't called me back, so I'm assuming they're avoiding me. If the bishop's kindness is any indication of the future I hope things start looking up. Incidentally, the former elder's quorum president confided in me that he was going to promote me from an EQ teacher to the EQ secretary but now that he is gone that won't be happening. I was glad to know that he had such a high opinion of me though. So that was encouraging. I'll just have to see what the new elder's quorum presidency is going to do with me. Anyway, as always, keep me in your prayers. I'll let you guys know what happens. Thanks for the kind words and good advice.

Not to sound harsh, but I really don't think that this is about me being overly-judgmental when the people in question admitted to me that they were rude and have assured me they are going to try to improve things in the future. That includes the bishop and his first counselor. I have been walking on egg shells with these people since the thing with the girl happened that was mentioned in the link earlier in the post. Even though those things were lies and the bishop (and the people that fabricated the story) knows it, it will still be hard for me to win their respect back. I do not consider myself "judgmental" but I am quite optimistic at this point after meeting with the bishop. I really believe things are going to improve since he has received compliments from people about how I've been doing in my calling and that he believes the girl situation is no longer on people's minds. I'm even going to try to get back in choir starting in January. I want to get more involved in my ward again and I believe that is a good way to regain the ward's confidence, along with bearing my testimony and living my life as an example.