bjw

My grandmother feel the same way you do, but she wears them, sometimes over another more comfortable underclothing. Me personally, I know its different for me because I'm a guy, I pretty much got used to them after three days and pretty much forgot I had them on after that. I think maybe you should experiment with some different materials. I know for me some seem sticky against sweaty skin, some seem warmer and are good for cold weather, and some seem lighter where you don't notice them as much. If I were you I'd buy some from different materials before deciding which are better, and then buy them according to what you like better.

My last bishop, who was bishop at the time I was endowed, was the person I selected to be my escort through the temple, so he was present when I was endowed. He actually said he would be happy to volunteer for it during my TR interview, so I selected him. He is also the one who baptized me when I first joined the church. So, even though he's no longer my bishop, I'll always be thankful for the kindness he showed me. I think most bishops enjoy it because they get to see how well their members are growing in the Gospel. When my grandmother was endowed, the temple president's wife was her escort since we showed up with no escort. It was pretty interesting.

Well, I've been doing quite a bit of research the past couple weeks and I'll let you know some of what I've been able to find out.About OD-1, which appeared to me to be a lie since the church actually continued polygamy another 20 years. However, after reading FAIR's explanation of why OD-1 was issued it seems to make more sense to me. The church adopted OD-1 as "advice" to discontinue polygamy, not as a commandment, similar to how the Word of Wisdom was issued as advice and later phased in as a commandment. (If you read the wording carefully it reads like advice.) The church had to do this because the US Government had planned to use the Edmunds-Tucker Act to confiscate the land holdings of the church, including the Utah temples (I think there were 3 at the time.) This act allowed for any property of polygamists to be confiscated. Printing OD-1 in the D&C showed the government the church was willing to cooperate as far as getting "advice" out to the general membership to discontinue polygamy. In the early 1900s George Albert Smith, who was then prophet, issued the second manifesto making it a commandment to cease plural marriage, the same way the Word of Wisdom was later made a commandment. This occured during the senate investigation. While I still don't agree with not putting the Second Manifesto in the D&C, I can see from the church's point of view why it had to phase out polygamy the way it did, and how it had to protect the church from losing all of its assets because of this unfair law. The rest of the things I don't really have an answer for, but they are true. I am willing to accept though that people are not perfect. Whether I list bad things here or not the facts are still the facts. I believe we can still have perfectly good LDS books, sunday school manuals, and priesthood manuals that have truthful information in them. Yes, I can see why it would look that way to someone that doesn't know me, but I have been a regular at MADB/Fairboards for the past 5 years or so and have also posted on this board since it took over the fellowship board from that forum. I have even met up with six people already that I've met in the LDS online community, and have bore my testimony on the net on various sites several times now. Those that know me know my sincerity. Actually, if you have more information about these things please let me know, I am also trying to read on FAIR and FARMS on a regular basis. I try to stay clear of anti sites since they are usually biased and come up with a lot of weird things that have been proven false ad naseum.

Actually, most of it I heard other Mormons talk about on MADB, it can all be backed up by first-hand sources.The Bereans are a group mentioned in the New Testament in the Bible, who did not merely take man's word for everything but looked it up in scripture. They are mentioned in Acts 17:11. As for the testing, I just started my college classes for my teaching credential, and I'm scheduled to retake the test next month. I just hope I can pass it this time. :)

Adoyle and Kenny, well said.

Well, I talked to the Stake President's secretary tonight and he's going to make me an appointment with the Stake President, so I'll let you all know how it goes.

No, I am not in a singles ward.That might be a good idea. I'm assuming the bishop will try to reassign me to something eventually.

I resent that. I love my father and would not join a church just to upset him or get him to turn his back on me.

Its posts like this that are negative and fault-finding. I honestly can't believe anyone would think a sincere seeker of truth is an apostate. Why don't you accuse the writers of the JoD and HC of these things since its there you can find most of these things. I was not making excuses not to believe. Anytime anyone finds any problem whatsoever with the church its people like this that accuse them of being anti-mormons. Also, I never said "this church is so awful and the people range from jerks to outright evil" in any post. I said some of the early church leaders were not as good as the church makes them out to be and did a lot of bad things. I went on to give examples supporting that statement. It's true, so what. People are not perfect, later posts in the thread went on to prove this. You are taking what I said and making very harsh generalizations that are not there. With this attitude you will drive more people away from the church than you will help them stay in. If you are wanting to do apologetics as your website indicates, then you should learn to be more patient with people and not pass judgment on them. People like me are hurting, some feel betrayed, and want answers. Now, you do what you told me to do. Only put yourself in the shoes of someone who believed something for 24 years, found out it was all a lie, did not know where to turn, and joined a church which they served for 5 years as a loyal member. Then, they found out this church was not entirely truthful and people start falsely accusing them of being an apostate, questioning God/the Gospel, and just trying to find fault or find an excuse not to believe. Seems different now, doesn't it? So, you do not know me, so don't pass judgment on me. It's rhetoric like what was in this posts that really does cast doubt on the church for me. Because, in my mind, it seems like questioning or thinking for yourself is frowned on, and you are just insulted and told to "get back in line" whenever you want to know why something is.

Okay, I've got another update. First of all, thanks to everyone that has been concerned about me and wanted to know what's going on, I really appreciate your concern and the prayers you have given for me. The Bishop met with the EQ President and he (the EQ President) called me tonight. He said he was concerned about me and was sorry that I wanted out of the presidency. I told him how I felt and explained to him why I was quitting. He did seem apologetic. He said he was also concerned with the doubts I was having about the church. He basically said the same things the bishop said about that, and he said he didn't want me to go inactive. After all that he's done it was hard for me to believe he is sincere, but I think that now that the bishop has excused me from 3rd hour I can go to church for awhile and not run into any problems. Then, maybe later on I can go back to 3rd hour after I take some time away to think about things. I'm going to talk to the stake president about it next, and I'm probably gonna start going back to church on Sunday. I'll let you guys know how its going as soon as I find out more. Thanks.

History of the Church and Journal of Discources are not anti-mormon publiacatons. They are official church publications so should not be "faith-demolishing" garbage. The story about Emma actually came from Brigham Young. If I did not have a testimony of the gospel I would not have even started this thread, and you would see me over at Rfm or Nom right now. Remember, if this church is true (and I really hope it is) then all truth about it can be revealed and it will still hold up. The whole truth should not be "faith-demolishing." There is absolutely no reason to attempt to sugar-coat any of its history, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with someone studying the history of a church, especially one that they donate so much time, money, faith, and energy to. The Bible encourages us to be like the Bereans and check everything that is told to us, and we are told to test the spirits. Also, to be prepared to give a reason for the hope we have. In converting to Mormonism, my father as well as many of my other relatives turned their backs on me, and I gave up my chance at becoming a protestant minister as well as my previous beliefs that I had for nearly 24 years. There is a lot at stake for me in this church, and I can't afford not to have the truth. Please think about that before passing judgment on me.

Sorry I didn't get back to you guys sooner. Nothing has really happened this past week since I was sick Sunday and didn't get to go to church. I did get to the temple once last week and had a good session. I still really enjoy the church and would like to stay. I'm going to go back to church Sunday and see how things go, and then go from there. If there is still conflict I will probably go to the Stake President next.

Thanks Kenny, I look forward to checking those out. As for the situation, I met with my bishop last night and he thinks I should go do a temple session. He also said he had no problems in releasing me from the callings and said I could be excused from 3rd hour because of my problems with the EQ President. He also told me that he understood why I didn't teach the lesson on Sunday so it wasn't a problem. We talked for about 20 minutes about feeling the Spirit in our church and it really made me feel better. He said that despite the history of the church, we still know the church is true by the feelings we have when we feel the Spirit, and people aren't perfect. He said he thought that Satan was using the shortcomings of these people to try to get me to lose my testimony. Anyway, I'll keep you posted on how things are going. I'm going to do a temple session tonight.

I just want to thank everyone that has given me good advice and been praying for me. I am meeting with my bishop tonight and I will let you guys know how it goes. Thanks.

Ogre,Nothing I said on here came from anti stuff, I learned it all from pro-Mormon sources, mostly the Journal of Discources, fairwiki, MADB, official publications, and some books published by church owned publishers. Most anti stuff I do not even bother with it because a lot of it lies so much you can never know when they are telling the truth.

I think that my past posts reveal my true intentions. If what you were saying is true I would not have bothered meeting with some posters in person that I have met online over the past several years, spent hundreds of dollars taking a vacation to Salt Lake City to see general conference in person, and even broke off ties with some close family members who completely turned their backs on me when I joined this church. Many people on here and MADB know my story and some even know me personally, so I'm sorry but what you are saying is simply not the case. I have been telling the truth with every post.

I believe the story about Emma poisoning Joseph's coffee was told by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses, but several books have mentioned, and I've heard it mentioned on MADB before, so I'm sure someone over there could probably help you out as far as a source goes.I had another question about callings and priesthood attendance. I thought there was something in the temple recommend interview about magnifying your callings and attending meetings. Can they take a recommend for these things, and is there a question in the interview about it? I had my last one several months ago, but I can't remember all of the questions.

There is a big difference here, the Bible does not attempt to sugercoat or lie about things that happen in the past. Even drastic things God does are presented in the open, like when people are killed in the OT or prophets disobey God. A few example of things I take issue with: Emma Smith poisoned Joseph Smith's coffee, and Joseph Smith's brother Samuel died mysteriously of poison. (Some attempted to frame Brigham Young) Brigham Young in the JoD said that Emma Smith was insane and had lost her mind and was an apostate. Yet today she is called "the elect lady" with pictures of her hanging in relief society rooms and movies made. She is viewed as a heroine that young women can pattern their lives after. Which is it? In fact, the Relief Society was disbanded by the church for a 20 year period when Emma began teaching anti-polygamy doctrine, and was reinstated later in SLC by Brigham. According to Sherry Dew, it was disbanded because of mob persecution. OD-1 now appears in the D&C as a revelation that was mandatory for the church to follow forbidding plural marriage, issued by God's prophet Wilford Woodruff. Yet, 6,000 plural marriages were performed between 1890 and 1910, long after the alleged revelation, some of which were performed by Woodruff personally or were Woodruff taking on additional wives. It wasn't until the Senate hearing that the second manifesto was issued in 1910 making monogamy mandatory for Latter-day Saints, but was left out of the D&C. This was discussed recently by pro-Mormon apologists on MADB just a week ago. Joseph Smith committed numerous crimes during the course of his leadership in the church, some of which include the Kirtland Banking Scandal, secret polygamy, and the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press (which led to his death). The priesthood manual and church history literature (Our Heritage, etc.) leaves out the reasons whenever Joseph Smith is imprisoned or even the reason he was killed. I agree that what happened to him was a travesty, but to say that he had no part in bringing the persecution on himself is simply not true, and the historical record confirms it. I have also found out things recently like when the Book of Mormon in Alma 40 quotes the Westminster Confession and the Book of Abraham translation issues. I have some temple-related issues that I can't mention here but it bothers me. Honestly, it just broke my heart when I learned these things. I've been a very staunch defender of the church, you can even see that in my past threads on here and MADB, but lately the more I learn about it is the less I find I am able to defend it. I would like to have an answer to these things. I honestly want to believe that the church is true. Even the Bible is more honest than this when talking about the disobedience of prophets and problems with God's people. I'm scheduled to meet with the bishop tomorrow night and I am going to tell him about all of my doubts in addition to the problems with the EQ President and tell him that I would just like a break from everything, at least from 3rd hour. I would also like to know if there is an answer to some of these things. I pray I can stay in the church and I also pray that the church will be more honest in the future.

At this point I'm probably looking for an exit to the callings. I do not think there will be any way I can work with this EQ President in the future, even if I stay with the church.Thanks to everyone that has posted so far. I do like the church and I would like to stay with it. Even though I have now learned that people in the early church like Joseph and Emma Smith, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, etc. were not the good people the church is making them out to be and that they did a lot of bad things, my testimony is in Jesus Christ and not in fallible humans. However, its like another poster said earlier, that when local leadership treats you bad it just compounds these things and makes you have even more doubts about the truthfulness of the church. After all, it would be much easier to just give up on it then it would to try to stay and work things out. I do plan to take my doubts to the bishop and see what he has to say, and see if I can get released from the callings and excused from 3rd hour. I don't know, this whole situation just has me really depressed right now and I hope I decide what to do pretty soon.

I've had another situation come up at my ward, and the church in general, and wanted some advice. You guys really helped out last time. It seems that I'm having more problems at my ward with the EQ President and the church. On Saturday I went to take the CSET Mathematics exam, its very hard and only has a 20% pass rate, and I had so much riding on passing it this time, since I had already paid a non-refundable $500 fee to take night classes starting in June while I intern as a high-school math teacher. Its going to really cost me since my salary would have tripled had I passed the exam, and I'm having a lot of financial trouble. Well, the EQ President called me right when I got back from the exam, and I know I failed it, and I was almost in tears while we talked. He asked me what was wrong and I explained to him the situation. He came across as being very insensitive and told me he wanted me to teach a lesson in Elder's Quorum the next day. I told him he reached me at a bad time and that I was having a lot of doubts about the church right now and needed to get things right in my life. He was persistent and said I was to do it anyway. I told him to find a substitute, maybe tell whoever was to do it next week and I would trade with him. He very rudely told me that it was my responsibility to find me a replacement, not his, and that I should get the ward directory and start calling people. I just said fine and hung up. I was so angry after all the problems I've had with this guy already that I didn't even bother going to church today. 5 minutes before priesthood was to start I saw on my caller ID that he was calling me. I didn't even bother answering. I'm still very upset right now, and have been having a lot of doubts about the church as it is. I just found out a lot of things that have been causing me to have doubts about the truthfulness of this church, and this has been making me wonder if it wouldn't be better to just stay home. I can always read the Bible with my grandmother at home and worship Him on my own terms without mean people taking jabs at me all the time. Even if this church turns its back on me, I know Jesus Christ will never turn his back on me. Even if the bad things I've been hearing about Joseph Smith or the early church are true, it still doesn't change Christ's love for me and I know no matter where I am I will still have Him. I'm wondering, what will they probably do since I didn't show up to teach the EQ lesson? I am definitely going to ask to be released from all callings and excused from 3rd hour, but I'm not sure if they will try some sort of formal disciplinary proceedings or take my temple recommend. The way the EQ President and the bishop have treated me and my grandmother, especially after the bishop yelled at my grandmother on the phone, I know these local leaders definitely do not emulate Jesus Christ. I know God will not hold it against me if they decide to ask me to leave the church. Right now I'm taking time off from it to do some soul searching, and to do more research on the church. I'm going to spend some time in prayer as well. I thought about quitting on my own, but I don't want to do anything in haste that I might regret later. I really want the church to be true, and I wish I could get along better with the people in my ward, but nothing I try seems to work. So, any advice you guys might have I would really appreciate it.

Thanks to everyone that has replied. Just to give you guys a little update... I met with the EQ President in private at the church and told him how I felt and that I thought he was being unreasonable. I also told him I wanted out of the calling. He apologized to me and said that he was sorry for giving me the "us vs them" impression and that it was his first time in this calling and he's still learning it himself. So, I decided to stay with my calling and changed my mind about quitting. I told him that I understood his position a little better (we talked about a half-hour) and I told him that maybe we could learn to work together better. He agreed, and decided to have the weekly meetings Sunday afternoon instead of the more unreasonable times he wanted previously. I think the advice I got from everyone on here helped, because I feel like I know him a lot better after actually having a meeting with him and expressing my feelings. I think that he will be much easier to work with now. It should be interesting to see.

It's not status I'm after, which is why I would much rather go to the church without any kind of position and volunteer my time elsewhere instead of politicking for positions against a close-knit group of friends that are abusive. This has nothing to do with my testimony, since my testimony is in Jesus Christ and His Atonement, and not in some childish men that want to dress up in suits and play politics over voluntary positions. I'm pefectly happy playing piano for priesthood exercises and teaching once per month, I don't need any kind of title or job to go with it. The Lord knows my heart, and all of these Stake Presidents and other fancy titles, anybody that was "first" in this life will be "last" in the next, and vice versa. This was taught by Jesus Christ Himself.

I've heard quite a few stories about the dead appearing to the living in the temples and in visions, especially to relatives. Such as what the book "Temple Manifestations" describes. So, from that respect I would have to say that there is no veil after this life.

Thanks everyone that has responded so far. It really has given me the opportunity to think before doing anything rash. I think tomorrow sometime I'm going to try to talk to him. One thing I don't understand is that he's wanting me to set up in-house visits with members in the quorum between 8 and 9 pm on weeknights, and he wants me and the two counselors to go with him. I don't understand the purpose of that and I know the last EQ pres never did this. It just seems strange and I can't help but think that some of the other EQ members may find it intrusive. I don't know, has anyone every heard of anything like this?

I need some advice on a situation I'm going through right now in my ward. I am currently the EQ secretary and teach once per month in the EQ meetings, as well as play piano for the priesthood opening excercises. We recently had a change in the EQ presidency and I wasn't even informed about it, I found out when the rest of the congregation did. Surprisingly, the guy they put in the place of the old EQ president is a lifelong member of the church that has only been in our ward for a couple months. He's very arrogant and is very hard to work with. He calls my house at 9 or 10 at night and reads me long lists of names of HT routes, stuff that I couldn't possibly have any use for, since I get it all from the computer anyway. He changed the computer passcodes and won't give me the new ones on the phone, but wants to meet with me in person. He wants to have meetings at some of the weirdest times, like 8 am Sunday when church doesn't start until 12:30, and late on weeknights, in addition to holding weekly president visits on weeknights. I honestly feel that the bishop doesn't like me or my grandmother, that this new EQ pres is one of his friends, and that this ward is nothing but grown men in suits acting like children playing politics over volunteer service positions. I also feel I'm discriminated against in this church for being single, since singles never hold office in the church. The fact that I was not even considered as a counselor despite all the work I've done for this ward and the church in general was very telling IMHO. I definitely want to be released from the secretary calling. Frankly, I feel the masonic lodge can make better use of my time, since they do lots of community service and my research skills can be used for good in the research bodies, and I think that is a much more worthwhile useage of my time at this point. I just don't know how to go about it. Should I flat out tell the EQ pres my problems with him and why I can no longer work with him? Should I go to the bishop or stake president and maybe explain how all my problems started from the beginning? My bishop shouted at my grandmother on the phone last week (a separate situation) and I've been trying to get an appointment with the stake pres to complain about it but the secretary won't answer me, and the bishop claimed he would apologize to my grandmother but weeks have gone by and he hasn't. I'm considering just going to the stake pres about all of it. So, is there any advice? I would like to do this without losing my TR or getting repromanded, so any advice on the proper way to get released from the calling and letting them know how I feel would be appreciated.