LdsNana

4321- Isn't that an interesting response? "I didn't really do much. I just got to sit there and share my testimony for a few lessons..." WOW! Do we realize how powerful our simple testimonies are? Do we realize how important our PRESENCE can be? I now feel ashamed at the times that I have NOT been places where perhaps a difference could have been made because "I thought" it was no big deal. I am giving this thread a FIVE bc of the importance of the message it speaks and the POWER that we as individuals in the church have to make a difference in this great work. What we often "FEEL" as small and insignificant is much more far reaching, as evidenced IN AND THROUGH this technology by your sharing your experience here than we can really understand... Just imagine the power that must have been felt in this ONE new converts heart... IF we felt that power through these channels? I can only hope that in the future, I will strive to listen to the spirit and never again, hearken to the lies of "that" voice that so easily can sway a tired me with it is "no big deal" or "no one will miss you", etc... If only for our very PRESENCE, apparently, it is a BIG DEAL!

What a THRILL.... I honestly feel your enthusiasm and love for the gospel... literally by the spirit as I read your post! And I don't even know you personally or these individuals, but all of your spirits must be powerfully transmitting some wonderful joy through the circuits of eternity and I am feeling them so strong. Quite unexpected I must say, but delightful. Thank you for sharing and god bless you in your great work. What a witness of the power of this technology to move this great cause, is it not?

Hi Tebby, Welcome. I am so happy you are here too. When did you start coming back to church? How are you doing now with your little boy? I look forward to getting to know you. I hope your heart is doing better and you make a lot of new friends here. We love new friends.

Welcome Dr. Mom, How are you on mom advice? LOL I have one teenager left at home, who turns 16 this week, what do you think? I'm thinkin, just HOLD ON it's almost over! And I will be FREE AT LAST! Just think of it... maybe they will give you your own FORUM here and you can answer all questions from health related to mental health.... LOL Okay, enough with all that. Glad you are here. I hope you are able to feel connected in ways that will help you to maintain the spirit in your life while you're finishing your internship. I have a son-in-law who is at Parkland Memorial in Dallas doing his residency. My daughter has three children and it is tough on families, for everyone. I think this is a really great way to approach your absence from the ward family thing, etc... And also let me just say... YOU GO GIRL!

It will be interesting to see if Section41 returns and gives an update on how his search for truth is coming along. I am also hoping to ask him why he has chosen his particular handle particularly for an investigator? I can't really think of a reason why Sec 41 would be so significant. It makes me almost wonder a bit? Hmmmm...

Welcome to the forum. We all look forward to getting to know you.

Dale, And you certainly served S41 well, I do believe. And this is precisely WHAT is hoped when a person comes here to the forum seeking assistance in their search for correct understanding, knowledge and ultimately the TRUTH. And that is that they will be given a balance of suggestions to aid them in their endeavor so that they may be sucessful in their journey. Is it not wonderful that we are able to work together in order to help them accomplish that which we all hope for each other? You know, I have spent time on other forums and I must say that so far I have felt my time spent here to be the most enjoyable as well as of service... at least I hope so. Thanks for your post on this and your reasoning. I totally understand and agree with you too.

Welcome Amy, I love the enthusiasm in your voice and I am so very happy for you and your new husband. What a wonderful way to start off a new life together. I hope you will allow us to help you in any way that we are able right now. Consider all of us your friends, sincerely. Any questions or concerns that you might have, I am confident that there are those here that would be more than ready to help answer the best they can. But it sounds like you have terrific missionaries... they are always so wonderful. :) We shall be watching for you and excited to hear all the happy things going on with your baptism day.

LMM - You give excellent council. Although I do not believe lds said anything about becoming a member? I think he is just preparing himself on WHAT to expect with this person who is. I think that thought may have been suggested here... Nonetheless, you are wise to give a heads-up on this becoming a very strong potential in these situations, with many an unhappy ending I am sad to report. Membership in the Church MUST be obtained aside from any relationship with an individual person that you are tied to emotionally.

Wow, I am so impressed. You must really think highly of this person to go to the work of wanting to know what to expect, so as not to potentially damage your friendship with her. You must be quite a guy. Active lds are usually quite careful about who they choose to date, even amongst themselves. You don't mention how long you have known each other, but you seem to imply knowing enough to say she does not hide being lds. Do you go to school or work together? Well, I just could not help myself from just complimenting you on being so conscientious (where is the spellchecker?) LOL I hope you two just have a great time no matter where things go. Maybe you can let us know? We Mormons can be a little nosy at times... but hopefully in a good way. But feel free to check things out around here and ask as many questions as you like. Hey, you could become a Mormon expert and really impress her???

Jamie, My apologies if I misunderstood your previous exchange with another poster... as it appeared to me to be an independent quote, with comments of your own. Nice to know "we" are on the same page. :) At least as far as who we consider to be a credible resource for doctrine this time around anyway. I am still learning the ropes around here, so I hope you will forgive me this one anyway?

I do not believe we have a "general rule of thumb" when we quote directly from Joseph Smith who was the Prophet for the dispensation of the fullness of times, who was also quoted saying these same words by multitudes of prophets that suceeded him. This is NOT just any quote, this is the saving doctrine of the church as taught by the man where, in our canonized scriptures it is said "that he has done more, save Jesus only for the salvation of man". The Church Educational System has a policy that anything reprinted from 1969 in a church publication may be used to teach in CES, ie Seminary, etc... This quote has been reprinted numerous times in official manuals of the church before and since then and I will go out on a limb and say it is printed in the new manual for 2008... as this is what we teach unto ALL, that they too must receive ALL of the Temple ordinances, and to WHO then set the perfect example Himself. If we could not preach this truth, then how could we possibly then teach and consider it a requirement? Joseph Smith knew he was not making an idle statement here, and every reprint of it remains veiled to those that choose it to be so, and this is intended just that way as all great truths are... In submitting this quote my hope is that truth and reason will put away confusion and bring added light to the question posted. tdmg, gVr "If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all of the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord. (italics added) (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, JFS) ps. I happen to love those dead/living prophets who spoke by the power of the spirit who continues to live and will continue to bear witness to ALL TRUTH... and to all the honest seekers of all truth wherever it is to be found and willingly received... to them he will also give more... until the perfect DAY!

Dale- Your research AND information are excellent resources for a scholarly approach and do have a place in ones exploration of an overall understanding and knowledge pertaining to the controversy surrounding The Book of Abraham. But they cannot prove to a person that WHAT is contained in The Book of Abraham is authentic or is NOT. That is the problem. All these resources attempting to do is contend the credibility of Joseph Smith and his ability to do what he said he did OR prove that what he did was NOT possible. NONE of them take the time to do much with the CONTENT of WHAT HE DID, WHICH IS AMAZING! By their FRUITS ye shall KNOW them. It is the FRUITS by which we come to KNOWLEDGE of things that are TRUE. When we become distracted and confused and contend... we never come to CONTENT, WHICH IS THE FRUIT = TRUTH AND KNOWLEDGE INTELLIGENCE OR THE LIGHT OF TRUTH LIGHT CLEAVETH TO LIGHT... until the perfect DAY. Thus Satan cometh and taken away light from the children of men... and how does he do this? By distracting them. Let us offer CONTENT, The WORKS themselves... this is HOW the BOOK of MORMON is the tool to be used. tdmg, gVr

<div align="center">First Kings</div> <div align="center">Chapter 7</div> Solomon built himself a house also—For the temple, Hiram of Tyre made the two pillars, the molten sea, the ten bases, the ten lavers, and all the vessels—The molten sea (baptismal font) rests on the backs of twelve oxen. <div align="center">(NOTE: THIS Chapter Heading ABOVE - is what is written currently in the OT and I did NOT add what you SEE in the parenthesis... I guess Bruce got it right afterall?)</div> 23 ¶ And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. 24 And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast. 25 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward. 26 And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two athousand baths. 27 ¶ And he made ten abases of brass; four cubits was the length of one base, and four cubits the breadth thereof, and three cubits the height of it. 28 And the work of the bases was on this manner: they had borders, and the borders were between the ledges: 29 And on the borders that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubims: and upon the ledges there was a base above: and beneath the lions and oxen were certain additions made of thin work. These are the directions for the building of Solomon's Temple and certainly bear witness of temple ordinances in general in the Old Testament. Not only baptism can we find in the Old Testament. Many of the teachings of BRM just had not yet been taught by the First Presidency as yet. In other words, he stepped ahead, which is a NO NO. IT DOES NOT mean that he taught false doctrine. Much of what he taught was correct, thus they did not ever remove his book from the very beginning or censure him. They did edit the book however. Actually I would say most of what he taught was correct doctrine but it was not given a stamp, but left for members to come to for themselves and not given an official status as "truth doctrine"... ie, a stamp of approval. And yet, even though this younger generation maybe does not feel the weight of this book, certainly those who grew up through the 70, 80 and 90's considered it a very stellar resource. Contrary to what others may think. As well we might enter Joseph Fielding Smith's works, which are bountiful, but most written NOT as "the" prophet either or highest authority... So he is considered a great authority of doctrine as well. The more you publish... the more credible you become? Although this is extremely frustrating to members and non-members alike. So they did NOT want BRM stating that these things were THE DOCTRINE, as he can only state them as his opinion, although for the most part, many of them even know darn well that they are TRUTH. But.... a few may not have agreed. And that is the point... when salvational truths are NOT hanging in the balance, it is BEST to allow individuals to come to truths on their own. BRM's book can be good for some, but for others and in many cases it causes divisiveness within and without the church, which the church does it's best to avoid. So, don't toss off that great work that this inspired man offered, and his brethren in Christ also recognized and treated it accordingly. Remember, I believe he was advanced in his priesthood office following publishing this book. Does this not say something as to how this man was regarded by the Lord Himself? tdmg, gVr ps. Great quotes were posted here on quiding what is DOCTRINE and how to be guided:-) I would read them often.

Section41- I am more than happy to answer any question you might have about the Book of Abraham after you have read it. But I do find it interesting that you requesting a defense of us, before you have asked or heard the truth is quite interesting? You have not even attended a Mormon Church yet? Are you a Bible believing Christian? Then you should understand the basic principle of milk before meat... Line upon line is how you need to approach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you read Isaiah? Can you explain Isaiah to me? How about Leviticus or lets talk about Revelations? I would like to have you first talk more with your friend and attend church, meet with the missionaries and begin reading The Book of Mormon. This is to begin sipping the milk... The Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price is exactly that... a Pearl of Great Worth, beyond your ability to comprehend at this time. If you read it now, you will not understand it's value as you have no foundation to set it upon, to display its beauty. Those who would at this time now, in your search for light and your desire to know and find truth, would hope to destroy any efforts on your part to ever find this PEARL in the future by throwing it up NOW, when you can't possibly understand it fully at this time and have not even had an opportunity to develop a testimony as yet... Their goal is to place doubt and fear into your heart, which they have. The spirit cannot dwell where you have allowed fear to enter in, therefore truth cannot be taught and you are unable to find what it is you truly seek. You need to recognize fear and doubt as a time to turn away and go in another direction... that would be toward all things that are clear and direct and cause you to SEE, and FEEL good, positive, knowing you are doing and heading toward understanding. I truly hope that wherever your journey leads you that it will be one of light and clarity, that you will turn immediately when doubt and confusion enter in, particularly when there is negativity or contention involved that would perpetuate divisiveness. "If ye are not one, ye are not mine". Regardless of which building we choose to Worship God in, we are all of His children, we are all brothers and sisters, and He expects us to treat each other as such... tdmg, gVr

As I am sure you must have noted by the barrage of questions that have been asked of you, here on this thread, and perhaps this is not your usual welcome elsewhere, but it does not seem that you go as easily undetected as you alluded to in a previous post? And of course this thread was to announce who your are and what it is you do amongst camps and therefore maybe you were not even attempting to NOT be on the firing line of questioning? Could it be fair to assume then, that this was your very intention through announcing, by posting a thread called "Baptist-mormon Preacher Here", that this was to elicit controversy amongst the lds? My apologies if I am wrong. But your final statement as I have quoted above leads me to believe that your now coming to the lds camp is more or less a way to let we campers know that we are not so high and mighty as we think. My first response to your epistle was to be moved at your cause, for I too love the apostle Paul and his christlike ways with working with all people in his approach to preach the Gospel of Christ. I too love the cause of becoming a ZION people and look forward to the day we will all be as ONE. But Paul would NEVER deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ as instituted by Jesus Christ himself. You claim to know the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God. If this is true, then you are as obligated as ANY man, FOR GOD IS NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS. And whether the world receives this one truth or not, it remains, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints is the organization here upon the earth that Jesus Christ Himself has authorized to administer His Gospel for the salvation of the children of men until He comes again. Even Jesus Christ Himself, submitted to the will of THE FATHER and came unto John the Baptist who had AUTHORITY to Baptize and thus He fulfilled THE LAW by entering into the waters of baptism, received the Holy Ghost, which then led Him back into the Kingdom of Heaven! Please answer for all of us here... how you are greater than the Son of God who submitted in keeping the commandments of the Father that He knew to be TRUE? OBEDIENCE AND SACRIFICE ARE THE FIRST LAWS OF HEAVEN THE FIRST COMMANDMENT HERE.... TO LOVE THE LORD THAT GOD! EXACTLY HOW DO WE DO THAT? YOU QUIBBLE ABOUT WHAT TRUTH IS SO AS TO JUSTIFY "YOUR" WORK. TRUTH IS ONE ETERNAL ROUND. tdmg, gVr

I think the hardest thing to do is just to walk through those doors for the first time after years of not going and force yourself to go up and say "hi". So I double dare ya... and we will all want to hear how things go, so we can root you on. Think about it? Mormons just loooooooove to reach out and put their arms around each other, and when they know what your needs are, why the right person will come right along for YOU. Just wait and see. Whether you know it or not, you are a child of the covenant. There are people that you don't realize who have been praying for this day to come. Now go ahead and do your part. You may not audibly hear the heavens rejoice, but there certainly will be shouts of joy. Agency is the most precious gift. To choose that which will bring you eternal happiness is all that matters to those who love you most. So, go ahead and choose it whenever you are ready... we will all be here waiting for you. tdmg, gVr

John, Can I tell you that I think you are so wise to reach out to other members for support when you are being bombarded with questions such as these, that most life-time members of the church could not possibly answer themselves. And in fact, that is precisely the point! I can promise you that those that are asking you these very specific questions did NOT make them up all by themselves. You see John, as I am sure you are well aware, many people do not understand what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints actually teaches. Most of what the public knows about the church comes from those who oppose the church. So much of our publicity is from those that have become disaffected from the church and are now going about to do damage. The other group are those who are offended that we claim rightful priesthood authority. This being that only ONE church can be The TRUE Church of Jesus Christ. We make that claim. We stand behind that claim in boldness. We make a promise to that claim that can be had by individuals.... And that brings me to my point now. I want you to know that I too am a convert of the church. My beginning years of membership were not diligent ones, but later in my life I became very serious in my study of the doctrine, principles and history of the church. My counsel to you at this time would be to "hold to the rod" that brought you into the waters of baptism. Try to remember those feelings that you were personally given and received, when you were were taught the truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Remember the promise of The Book of Mormon and that by the Power of the Holy Ghost you would come to know for YOURSelf that it was TRUE. When you recall these experiences that can ONLY come through the Holy Ghost, then you can RE-Member WHY you chose to be baptized and become a MEMBER of The Kingdom of God here upon the earth. It was Truth, that can only come from GOD, that brought you into His Kingdom and to Membership in His Church. The Book of Mormon is evidence that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world. It also bears witness to us that he who God gave to bring it forth, and establish the foundation of His Church, IS a true prophet of God and has been given ALL of the priesthood keys necessary to administer salvation unto the children of men in the last days. John- The evidences are overwhelming when received line upon line, by the spirit, when you are ready to receive them. If you will remain faithful to what you have been given, and willingly received, and RE-MEMBER what you KNOW to be TRUE, and also confidently bear TESTIMONY of those TRUTHS, you will receive more LIGHT. This is the PROMISE. I testify to you, that to every ball that they have thrown at you, there is an answer. And in those answers you will add strength to your testimony. But you cannot study fast enough to absorb it all and put it together at one time, nor is it necessary. Do not allow Satan to take away your light. Guard it by fueling it with your faith and testimony. Stand up and speak up and testify of what you know is true and how you know it to be so. Do not fear to be mocked... for mocked you will be. Your FAITH that you Know, which comes by the Power of the Holy Ghost is a gift from God. Always Re-Member this weekly, and He will ALWAYS remember YOU. Remember the first commandment? tdmg, gVr

MorningStar, Apparently you don't remember being a "teenager" LOL And how much fun sabotage can be... tdmg, gVr

oops, but I was writing when everyone else was agreeing with Jason! Please don't kick me out.... tdmg, gVr

Selek, My heart truly aches for you, for I can tell that you feel a great burden of care for this women and particularly for her children whom must feel like your own? You mentioned that you have known some from the time of infancy. I get the idea that you feel this women is incapable of being a parent to these children on her own, as well as their biological father? In other words, by walking away, you not only lose her, you are losing these kids who you feel depend on you (and NEED) some sense of sanity and stability in their lives whether they realize it or not... I am going to disagree with everyone else here. A few questions I would ask. Are you both active in church? If so, what does your bishop counsel first? Certainly he would be most intimately aware of your circumstances and be able to give you the inspired counsel that you are in need of personally. If you have not gone to him "yourself", as you are not married, then I would highly recommend this first. He has priesthood keys, which give him the right to counsel you on these matters, well over any of us. Second, in my personal opinion, which is only an opinion... I believe that you DO have a responsibility to this family. But that you must believe that fully yourself in order for this to happen. You cannot whine for it. If they will not CHOOSE you, and allow you your rightful spot as husband and father, then YOU must release yourself appropriately. So I would hope that your Bishop could assist you in this process. I think that your ex-wife OWES it to YOU to decide/ make a CHOICE as to HOW you will be involved with her life, and decide IF she will remarry you or not? Once that decision is made, THEN you will KNOW HOW to proceed CLEARLY. You need to STOP allowing her to manipulate you like a puppet. You state she has many problems? I say she is playing you like a symphony and having the best of both worlds. You are better than this and she needs to grow up, which is something her parents and you have never required of her. I would expect from her a decision as to marriage and also with that marriage union an understanding of HOW a family works together. For all of you that will require some MAJOR counseling. Family and marriage. Is it worth it? Absolutely. Apparently you are both worth it to each other or you would not be playing these games and screwing your kids up, but you are and for their health you need to do this for THEM! Do NOT remarry UNLESS you are COMMITTED TO GET COUNSELING. IF she is not willing to remarry and heal your family into the future, then you must move on, maintaining whatever connection the children will allow you to have with them. You are critical to their health, as you have been the major male figure for them. I realize this is bold, but I am passionate as I am a child of divorce and have given much thought and interest on this topic. But again, you put it out there and I have only replied with my personal opinion. I honestly wish you the best and hope for you complete joy in your eternal family. I truly respect your desire to care for and help this woman and her children whom you desire to claim for your own. I find this truly christ-like. Bless you for such a worthy desire. tdmg, gVr

Okay, MorningStar... As you are reading and hit upon something that you want to discuss, just "light" up this thread and I will keep an eye out for you. Then we can chat about it. Also I have email notification on this thread as well. It has been a while since I read the book, but there were a lot of very enlightening insights in the book. I am sure others felt the same way. (Isacc for sure) As well we have all read other books on temples, symbols, etc... so we could have some fun here discussing together. So it sounds like we are all in sync with the advice your big brother gave you. Does that make us somewhat credible now? LOL But don't stay in the bathroom too long, you may come out to complete disaster! tdmg, gVr

I believe that those who are ordained unto His Holy Priesthood are bound to exercise it on behalf of those who ASK. Therefore, those who feel a need to call upon the Elders of His church in NEED of a blessing for "anything" will receive their request. I have never seen any doctrine upon how many times a person may ask the Lord for his blessings? What a covenant these faithful men take upon themselves as they walk with the Master. Ask and it shall be given... How that comes to those who ask is not known to those of us who may be "looking" upon these situations from the outside, for we cannot judge the HEART of any individual, regardless of what we THINK we know. Personally, if something does not work for me, I stop buying it. Faith is what is required, if only that of a grain of mustard. For some, that may literally be all that they have, and for them daily a blessing becomes manna unto life. When ye have done it unto one the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. I believe we are speaking of the poor in spirit, health, means, knowledge, etc... So when we give of ourselves to the least deserving of our time, who may least lack the ability to receive our offering... to the Savior this is as if it were giving unto Him. He came unto his own and they received Him not... how much this must have hurt as evidence in the record of Third Nephi. tdmg, gVr

Issac, I take note that you quote Nibley in your post. Obviously you "love" him. I hope I did not offend you when I described him as "crazy"? I take it you probably know exactly what I mean... I also wanted to comment on your avatar. I LOVE IT! A TREE OF LIFE I presume. (great sketch... would love a copy) And is Isacc your given name or is it an alias? Just curious. And now, do you mind if I ask WHY you chose this combination AND the quote to go along, IF it does? It is very interesting. tdmg, gVr ...oh and by the way, I am reading his works and agree with you thus far. He truly IS/WAS quite a character! (prayer circle is enlightening and affirming for lds)

I would highly recommend the book. I would also say, if you have not encountered Hugh Nibley before, that you will need to know that he is "crazy"! LOL But brilliant:-) Soooo, you must read him slooooowly so that you may understand him from beginning to end, else he will lose you and you will find yourself re-reading. Mark my words. He is easier to read than to listen to for sure, but surely worth your time and effort. He has incredible insight for those willing to forge ahead. His books are compilations of his many papers and lectures he has given. Therefore, you can read portions at a time. But take your time with this book and don't rush it just to get through it. Too much info. With Temples and Cosmos DO begin at the beginning. Make sure you are attending the temple often and much will open unto you in the process, IF you ASK. Have great fun! I love that book. tdmg, gVr