NeuroTypical

This is indeed a valid epiphany. And it's one that Mormons take much more comfort in than the next church over. We believe in a 'second chance' of sorts in the afterlife, where people who didn't have the chance in this life to accept Christ, are given that chance in the next. We do indeed believe that good, honest, righteous people come from the ranks of jews, hindus, athiests, buddhists, etc. It would sure be a shame if Christ's atonement didn't help them out in some way, since it's the only way back to heaven. LM

My first immediate thought, is that the church in your area is really failing that 12 yr old girl. If she found out about this dance, she would be totally justified before God in calling us a bunch of d*mn*d hypocrites. This is a serious problem, and if I were in that ward, I'd seriously consider going on as much a crusade as necessary in order to correct this state of affairs. Willow, I would make this an issue. A quiet one at first, bringing things up to Bishop. Then Stake President. If that didn't resolve anything, I'd get louder. I'd go to the area authority. I'd start talking publicly about the situation. Should all the normal channels not work, I might even consider statements that would throw a spotlight on the organizers of this dance which might shame them. Now, that said, this does NOT happen everywhere in the church. I haven't been to any of our youth dances, but I would hear the Bishopric discuss them while I was an Executive Seceretary. They went out of their way to make sure all youth had a dance card and an interview about modesty and appropriate behavior - even visiting nonmember kids. They often had a story to tell about how they would make a kid go home and put on more clothes, or end up kicking a kid out after several warnings about their inappropriate dancing. This crap shouldn't fly in our church. LM

Your mileage may vary: When my mom gave up smoking, she gave her last cartons of cigarettes to her sister who was traveling to Romania, to bribe the border guards as they adopted and took a kid out. When I increased my own personal discipleship and had a lot of awful music CD's sitting there, I just tossed them in the trash. I had no personal attachment to them. You can always store them and use them as barter items when society collapses and mad max rules the day. I dunno - I think the other responses here are good too, and probably a bit more realistic. LM (still keeps tools in coffee cans)

By the way, as far as I can tell, this is what forgiveness looks like. We currently live a state away from my wife's parents, and deal with the family at arms length only in public places. We helped put one of their kids away for 5-life for sexual abuse of a minor. (That's one out of at least 2 guilty brothers punished, for one out of at least five victims, spanning at least 2 generations.) As far as we can tell, both perpetrators were themselves victims at one time. We're guessing the parent's inability to do anything to stop this poison, might stem from their own traumatic events. Yeah, forgiveness is a good and burden-lifting thing. We wish they all would stop hurting themselves and each other. We hope they will someday be healthy. My wife will also exhale a huge sigh of relief when a few of them die, and then will mourn the people they should have been. Good thread. LM

Oh, please don't hush! There's still too much ignorance in the world, even in the church, about these realities. Thank you for being open with your story (even if it anonymously on a message board). Shout it from the rooftops as often as it's appropriate to do so. I've never encountered any of this stuff. Never been abused, spent the first quarter-century of my life not even knowing anyone who had been. I would be one of these clueless "why did you let it happen" types, except for the stories people have shared with me. Through their experiences, I was able to educate myself about the realities of abuse. And I'm better because of it. Thanks. LM

Snow continues to demonstrate my issue with Sunstone. It seems like no matter how intellectually stimulating the notion, it's always coupled with an uncharitable sneer. Ivory tower boogie-flicking at it's most biting. Yeah, we're merely put-off because we can't handle alternate points of view. And since we're too weak or stupid to admit the truth, we seek refuge from our fears by convincing ourselves that God doesn't want us to read Sunstone. Dang Snow - you pegged us. Anyone who claims they don't like the spirit eminating from Sunstone can never be anything more than weak-kneed, superstitious, dull-witted, fools in denial. It's not possible to have a legitimate gripe, we're just 'bent'. Phooey. LM

The average temperature in spirit prison will be at least 15 degrees Celsius cooler before I'll look to our buddy Momar for any insight into American politics. Or tinfoil hattish Illuminati CFR Bilderberger Skull & Bones politics either.

And what point do you think we can glean from this speech?

Well, I'd think you were paying him a compliment. Of course, if you were trying to compare apples with apples, you'd have to say something like "I like PaleRider and think he's swell. Much more swell than any stupid Elder's Quorum President I've been forced to suffer."See, there's a difference.

From where I'm standing, that bold part doesn't belong.Without shame, there is no honor. Without defeat, there is no victory. Satan's plan involved a total lack of keeping score, where 'everybody wins'. We're here to learn and grow and be tested and tried. Sometimes you learn by being ground into the dust by an uncharitable victor. Sometimes you grow by learning humility in victory. A lack of stuff like this dampens our progression. LM [whaddaya mean I can't charitably use the term 'weenie' anywhere in this post!!?!]

Just to make sure we're all aware of what's going on... In June 2008, a group of heavily armed Mexican drug cartel gunmen dressed up like a Phoenix Police Department tactical team, and fired more than 100 rounds into a private residence in Phoenix. Part of their getaway plan involved laying an ambush for pursuing police forces. Fortunately, someone was on the job that day, and cancelled the pursuit in time. That's the most melodramatic of an increasing series of events occuring in places like Phoenix, Dallas, and Austin. Right now, we're not going to war with Mexico, because all this violence and kidnapping and whatnot is basically affecting the illegal population, as well as drug lords and their families. Eventually, they might very well start robbing/kidnapping/killing American citizens. From Stratfor: LM

And here, in concise brevity, is the soul of Sunstone. Talking itself up, and the church down, in the same breath.Thanks for the illustration Snow. LM

I would state it differently. It's the massive increase of public awareness of child predators. They've always been there, we just were clueless. Gee, I guess that incredibly awkward episode in my teen years, getting hit on by the gay guy at work in the restroom was just my imagination.Do you want to rephrase your statement? Mine is the 2nd anecdote on this thread, proving it wrong. You wanna change it to "some gays don't recruit" or "most gays" or something like that? LM

Oh, not at all - they have a lot of online resources. sunstonemagazine.com You can download most of their back issues in PDF format for free.If you are well-versed in the issues they're talking about, you'll be able to find out 'what's so wrong with them', as you notice they seem to have their mind made up about the issue they're supposedly exploring openly. If you're unaware of an issue you discover in their magazine, you can be pretty sure that there's another side to the story that you're not being given a clue about. It's true that there is no such thing as unbiased - everybody has a bias no matter who they are or what they're talking about. It's just that the Sunstone bias seems to be along the lines of "let's see how we can make or church or it's members look wrong or goofy". It's commendable to want to see for yourself, instead of just taking some random loudmouth's word for it. :) LM

Just a quick follow up - here is a video illustrating why a knife is still a very deadly weapon against a guy armed with a handgun. (I can't quite peg the guy's accent - this seems to be an old police training video.)

They're a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals reasoning their way into apostacy. There's nothing wrong with being pseudo intellectual, and there's nothing wrong with using reason. But yes, there is something wrong with Sunstone.

A joke:

Indeed there are. We believe the various gifts of the spirit that were present and promised in the NT are still here with us today. Here's a chapter from a book we use in all our meetinghouses in Sunday School. Briefly, we believe in, and many of us have witnessed, these:The Gift of Tongues The Gift of Interpretation of Tongues The Gift of Translation The Gift of Wisdom The Gift of Knowledge The Gift of Teaching Wisdom and Knowledge The Gift of Knowing That Jesus Christ Is the Son of God The Gift of Believing the Testimony of Others The Gift of Prophecy The Gift of Healing The Gift of Working Miracles The Gift of Faith We tend not to talk too much about these. As the end of the linked chapter states: The Lord said, “A commandment I give unto them, that they shall not boast themselves of these things, neither speak them before the world; for these things are given unto you for your profit and for salvation” (D&C 84:73). We must remember that spiritual gifts are sacred. The Lord asks only one thing in return for giving us these gifts. He says, “Ye must give thanks unto God in the Spirit for whatsoever blessing ye are blessed with” (D&C 46:32). LM

I remember when my dad the WWII vet caught me scrawling swastikas on my table. Of course, I was SEVEN - and not a grown adult! I take this more as a failure of our public school system than anything particularly wrong with Adidas.

My wife will eventually tire of me and run me down in the driveway, so my results don't really matter.

This book tends to polarize people. Some like it, some hate it. I've spoken with people who tell me this book brought them into the church, and other people who claim it was their reason for leaving. I'm in the "love the book" camp, mainly because I've followed it's advice and gone and sat in the Bishop's "hot seat". It was one of the hardest experiences of my life, and also one of the most rewarding, freeing, burden lightening experiences. LM

Bring it.

I'll throw the story on the pile. January '08 - Utah LDS church shooting, 1 dead December '07 - Colorado double shooting, 4 killed 5 wounded March '08 - Maryland church shooting, 2 wounded September '99 - Texas church shooting, 7 killed 7 wounded July '07 - Jewish Federation shooting, 1 woman killed 5 women hurt July '08 - Tennessee church shooting, 2 killed 7 wounded (also here)

I doubt it has nothing to do with the spirit. It has to do with the occasional person and group waking up and taking stock of reality. It's a hard thing for America to take itself out of it's present culture of immediate satisfaction to the most minor taste or food craving. But when you do, and you start looking at the history of the world, you realize that tough times are really not that uncommon, and preparation makes sense. I suppose the spirit might be at work somewhere, but I'm betting it's more along the lines of some folks using the grey matter God gave them. LM

I'll make sure I take a breath in honor of my Canadian friends. You guys deserve some recognition, after all, no other country on earth is better at being directly north of the United States!