puf_the_majic_dragon

You're absolutely right about the gospel meaning of that verse. I wasn't trying to draw attention away from the importance of Christ's choice in birthplace. I simply wanted to point out that the verse's context is clearly limited to just this world. The scripture says that the Jewish nation was the most wicked nation on this earth; it does NOT say that this earth is the most wicked earth in God's many earths.

My good friend Vanhin brings some beautiful clarification to this topic on this thread. To summarize there are, according to the Guide to the Scriptures there are 3 primary definitions of "intelligence" which are: 1. The light of truth, (or the light of Christ) 2. A spirit child of Heavenly Father 3. Spirit matter (which our spirit bodies and all things spiritual is made up of) Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences In our present context, Hoosier would be referring to the third definition - that the spirit matter which our spirits are made of has always existed. How that spirit matter (3) is organized into our spirits (2) is ambiguous in scripture, but the most common inference I've read from church leaders is that it is a process similar to birth - hence why we are called spirit children and God is our Heavenly Father.

Ok that sounds more familiar. Still, I've done some homework on Freemasonry and the LDS Church is officially neutral on Masonic membership. I think anyone with any questions should consider prayerfully how to answer that question and whether being a Mason counts or not. And just remember that any answer they get is for them alone, and doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else.

Where the bleep do you get this idea? Cite your sources. I want to know where you get the idea that fossils come from a "failed earth". Just the thought of that idea makes me sick to my stomach... LDS.org page on the Atonement LINK "Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5–10; Helaman 14:15–17). " We have scriptures in 2 Nephi and in Helaman which expound on the atonement, and then we are given the appropriate interpretation of those scriptures - that the atonement applies to THIS EARTH. Follow the link above and there is an entire section of the page dedicated to scripture references that support this. I don't want to discourage good gospel discussion, but please do NOT claim that anything is doctrine or correct or true unless you have clear and concise scriptural or prophetic sources. Only what is written in scripture, spoken over the pulpit by prophets, or printed in official church instruction materials is true and correct doctrine. Any study guides or research or scriptural aids that are not written by a prophet and which are not printed officially by the church are subject to the errors and mistakes of men.

I don't recall being asked if I were a member of any other organizations in a recomend interview... not that I've had many of those but still... Exactly WHY Joseph Smith became a mason is anybody's guess, we can only speculate. Many of the new members joining the church at that particular time were masons, so Joseph Smith may have wanted to gain an understanding of their background. Masons claim to have preserved some of the ancient temple rituals from the original Temple of Solomon, so Joseph Smith may have joined (by divine inspiration or not) in order to see in real life (what was left of) the rituals which God had commanded him to restore in full. In the end, only God and Joseph Smith know the real reasons he became a mason. As of this date, neither the Freemasons nor the LDS Church have any official stance on their members being members of the other. A Mason can be a Mormon and vice versa. In fact I recall recently reading that one of the higher level masons in Utah is LDS - which is quite a deal since the Utah Masonic Lodge had banned LDS membership for a while (as far as I know, they were the only lodge to do so, and it was for "political" reasons).

Not to reiterate what I already said, but to point out the flaw in your argument - let me quote 2 Nephi 10:3 again, with one minor emphasis: It's important to read what the scriptures say, not what we want them to say. I've done it myself where I get an idea stuck in my head and suddenly start reading scriptures that support it only to find out I've omitted or misread a word somewhere and the scripture means the OPPOSITE of what I thought.

I'll agree mostly with TomK's response here. Pretty succinct and to the point. We discussed this in chat, you said you'd ask your bishop about it... I'm still very adamant that this was a gross misinterpretation of Moses 7:36. If you follow the footnotes on "Wickedness" it points you to 3 Nephi 9:9 which I think is the more accurate way to interpret Moses 7:36: "...because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth..." To borrow from Einstein - all things are relative. In the Gospel all things are relative to this earth. While it IS doctrine that there have been and will be many other earths, whether we can compare this earth to others is NOT doctrine, but theory and speculation. Now I love to theorize and speculate as much as (and more than) the next man, but it's important to keep those theories seperate from doctrine unless or until a prophet or scripture unequivicably verifies it as true or false. We know the atonement was/is infinite, but how or if that applies to "Worlds without number" we can only guess. Does the atonement only apply to this world and its inhabitants? Does it apply to every world in this universe? What about other universes? When(if) I am exalted and create my own worlds, will Christ's atonement on this one apply to those worlds I create or will there be other atonements for them? These are questions unanswered by scripture and, as far as I'm aware, unclarified by modern prophets. I personally tend to lean towards an infinite atonement that applies only to this world with other atonements for other worlds. Believing that we live on the one earth where the atonement for all earths was made borders on a geocentric universe, in my opinion. I'd encourage you to investigate and theorize and consider all the options before you, but even when those theories make absolute sense and may even seem to be scripturally supported, don't confuse them with true doctrine. If you can't be content to let your idea remain as just an "interesting idea", I suggest you search lds.org extensively, study the scriptures, pray, and consult your local priesthood leadership. And keep in mind that if it's not pertinent to your eternal salvation (which any "speculation" about the gospel is not) then it's not worth worrying over.

You open up an interesting perspective here that I'm going to take one step further. Sometimes the church is NOT true, but the people ARE. I know so many people who don't have the fullness of the Gospel, but are so strong in their faith and so giving in their natures. I've seen it from different Christian denominations to Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus - everywhere there are people doing their best to live righteous principles, even without the true church in their lives.

There is a difference between being tempted and receiving revelation from Satan. Just as obedience to the laws of the Gospel can yield revelation from God, disobedience to those laws can yield revelation from Satan, however that revelation is not always necessarily 100% truth. The worst cases, however, I think are those where they ARE 100% truth. Very often we don't always get answers to some of our questions right away from the proper sources, and Satan is more than willing to use those opportunities to our disadvantage by giving us those answers immediately.

I think it's also worth a note that the papyri from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham were "rediscovered" in 1966 in a museum in New York. Re-examination of those scrolls by the church may have had an impact on the translation.

GREAT! So what are you doing next Friday night?

I don't know if the BOM mentions anything specifically, but there are many LDS scholars who look at the BOM in a way similar to the Old Testament - a record written by a relatively small group of people in a widely populated geographic area. If you read some of the evidences on JeffLindsay.com - The Cracked Planet: Humor, Education, Mormons and Mormon Studies, Science, and Eclectic Items from Jeff Lindsay of Appleton, Wisconsin you'll read that the Olmecs (one small group of central americans) fit the timescale given by the BOM for the Jaredites, and that the stories of other groups in the area describe the Olmecs as arriving by boat. This particular archeological find doesn't support or deny the BOM in my opinion, but it's still interesting :)

Just another thought - in partaking of the Sacrament, this would the ritual moment where we make our sacrifice to God. Where the Levitical law requires animal sacrifice at specific times and for specific reasons, we believe that in Christ's fulfillment of that law we are to offer a new sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit ( Doctrine and Covenants 59 ) and the Sacrament would be (should be) when this takes place.

Superficially, you can make a lot of comparisons between the LDS church and other denominations. I usually find most protestant or restorationist christians comparing us to Catholics, oddly enough. The sacrament tokens (bread and water/wine) are symbolic, yes, but the ritual itself has a much deeper meaning. If you want to know what it means to us, you can read verses 8-10 in Mosiah 18

A: Because James and the giant peach landed in Massachusetts. Q: Is Hell endothermic or exothermic?

OK seriously the next person who wrongly assumes my name is a drug reference is getting a small claims suit for libel :| A: Yes, because he was born from a chimp Q: Is it bed time yet?

True! But what happens if we apply that to deity? As in - if absolute power corrupts absolutely, and God has absolute power, therefore......? I should probably stop distracting from the original purpose of this thread... Date members, marry in the covenant! I'm free Friday night!

Hey PC. You're right there, but actually I wanted to comment on your signature... I don't think power corrupts so much as it attracts the corruptable... Just a thought :)

Exactly. Date me instead! And then where would I be? I wouldn't have such a wonderful online buddy! What's that girl's address so I can send her a thank you card? Haha seriously though, there's 2 sides to every coin. Keeping our associations and relationships within the covenant can keep us pure and on the path, but how can we share the Gospel if we don't spend time with non-members? I believe there's a balance where we can socialize and even date those who aren't members of the church, but who have high standards, without compromising our own standards or putting our own salvation at risk.

Just a thought - you're arguing semantics. The officer probably said "We tried issuing a subpoena" where "we" was a generic apellation to reference those people working on the case. There is no reason for either the police officer or jcostillo to be so technically accurate. I suspect you work in law enforcement or very close to it, since you seem to be taking this rather personally. My suggestion would be to take a step back and take 10 deep breaths. Many of us have had very unfortunate experiences with law enforcement ( and I don't mean just speeding tickets) and improving the efficacy of this system is an important topic of discussion. ********* My own personal experience might be useful in the discussion. About 2 1/2 years ago I was laying in bed trying to sleep when I heard some noise in front of my 4plex that concerned me so I went and looked out the window. There was a group of teenagers and young adults in my parking lot fitting every cliche "low life" description you care to imagine talking on a cell phone about robbing people - one with a nasty looking baseball bat. I called 911 to report them and was assured that the police were on their way. I flipped on my porch light for the cops and the "gang" ran. The cops didn't show up any time soon so I went back to bed. 2 hours later, still no cops, I heard them out there again, so I called 911 a second time. I was on the phone discussing the situation and my previous call when I watched this group of scoundrels smash the window of my car in an attempt to break into it. This is when I hung up on the 911 operator and went out there myself. Of course as soon as I opened my door the miscreants ran - I watched where they ran to, a 4plex 2 doors down, and saw which apartment they went into. 20 minutes later the police finally arrived, took a few pictures, took my statement, knocked on the door down the street and had a nice chat with my "neighbors", then left. 2 days later I was at work and a heavily intoxicated homeless man was stumbling through the parking lot of the resturaunt I worked at. He tripped over his own feet and fell down, my manager called the police, and within 90 seconds there was an ambulance, a sheriff, and a fire truck on the scene. From that time onward, the only "law enforcement" I will trust will have the stamp of Sam Colt on it.

Yes Jonah was a true prophet, that's what the <sarcasm> tags were for :) Well I think a big part of it comes from those big bold letters at the end of the Old Testament "THE END OF THE PROPHETS" (queue the dramatic music). Most people don't realize that this refers to the Hebrew Tanakh from which our Old Testament comes and which is divided into 3 different sections "The Law", "The Writings", and "The Prophets". The line "The End of the Prophets" refers to the end of that section of the Tanakh which is named "The Prophets". At least that's my understanding from the research that I've done.

A: Cheesecake Q: Have you seen where my sanity went?

<aiml><sarcasm>Jonah was a false prophet! He went to Nineveh and prophesied that it would be destroyed and it never happened!</sarcasm></aiml> More seriously, while Skalenfehl is right about many "anti-mormons" taking things out of context, it's also important to note that nearly EVERY prophesy is dependent upon the decisions of the people that the prophecy is about. Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would be destroyed, but the people repented and Nineveh was spared - Jonah's prophecy of destruction was contingent upon the people of Nineveh choosing to continue in transgression. It's the "IF" part of prophecy that we sometimes overlook. Jonah's a good book. And only four short chapters, a pretty easy read. I heartily recomend it. The best part is when Jonah gets mad because the destruction he prophesied didn't happen. Even prophets sometimes don't fully understand prophecy :)

It's not so much a matter of man-power as it is a matter of money. Cities pay money to arrest, try, and convict criminals. They make money writing traffic tickets. Is it any wonder traffic cops outnumber patrol cops (at least in my town)? One thing Moroni would abhor is our dependence upon government institutions for our own safety, peace, and protection. I'm quite certain that Moroni today would advocate a lot more citizen action in crime prevention - not necessarily through vigilanteism (which there are many legal ways of going about doing), but simple things like neighborhood watch programs. I think, and I'm sure Moroni would agree, that in this country we depend too much on our government to keep us safe and we forget that we have a responsibility to keep ourselves safe as well. Personally I'm a fan of a combination vigilante neighborhood watch approach western style. Some shady character tries breaking into my (or my neighbor's) house and I'm liable to put a chunk of lead in his.... posterior corpus.

A quick search through my memory and Scriptures.lds.org brings up no results for the key words you mentioned. If you have a Jewish friend who mentioned it, ask them for a specific reference and then we can compare notes. As regards your postscript, the general easy answer is "yes" but most Jews will likely refer to their books of scripture using their proper names: the Torah and the Tanakh. You'll also often haer the Torah, which contains Genesis through Deuteronomy, referred to as "The Law" or "The Book of the Law", and technically the Torah is the 1st of 3 sections in the Tanakh. The Tanakh is, with a few differences, basically our Old Testament.