Traveler

I believe it was Benjerman Franklan that said, "Only a fool would be offended by someone that did not mean the offence - but it takes a bigger fool to be offended by someone that did mean the offence. The Traveler

I would think that history would stop progressing to the point that knowledge would go backwards and that historians would later identify the collapse of truth and the laps into apostasy unlike any other time and highlight the lowest part with a classic name like the "Dark Ages". The Traveler

I have traveled to many places and met many diverse peoples - rarely (if ever) have I ever found that kind people vary that much (if at all) in core beliefs. For sake of understanding - I define a kind person as someone that is kind when kindness is not thought to be necessary and is defiantly not expected. In general I would say that if someone feels a need to differentiate their core beliefs from someone that is kind - I see only two possibilities. First - you are not what you think you are or Second - you have misunderstood the person you want to criticize. The Traveler PS. I am far more interested in someone willing to show me a better way that to tell me.

Dr T: Thank you for your response. I was hopping for a more specific response concerning specifically what Sabbath Day means to individual religious thinkers. Does the Sabbath Day really make a difference? Is there any difference in your life because of the Sabbath Day? If so, what? And how do you know it made a difference? Besides attending some church meetings and another day off from work - what worth is the Sabbath? You said "a. Human need is more important than religious ritual". Okay, beyond some ritual (Sabbath worship) what is different in the Sabbath as apposed to any other day - nothing? Should there be? If so, what? If not, why do we have a Sabbath "Day"? Do we really need a whole day for Sabbath or just a couple or few hours for some almost meaningless ritual? The Traveler

Welcome - in my travels I will attempt to not cross Jordan soon. :) The Traveler

Rather than give a specific poster, I would like to suggest two posting types. The Best of the Best - I believe to be those who's heart aches and searches for help and answers to the challenges they are facing. The second Best - I believe to be those who sacrifice something from their heart to reach out and touch the Best of the Best. I will also add what I think is the worse - Those that prey on the Best of the Best. The Traveler

I think this is the first time one of our more sane members has accused Snow of not playing with a full deck. Of course, Ari and Peace did when they threw tantrums, but they obviously were not sane. In case there is question - I am not suggesting that Snow has any rational problems - I am only suggesting that for this matter that it appears to me that he is playing "Devils Advocate" (ignoring some facts) rather than posting accurately. He may have had good intention to keep the conversation going. :) The Traveler

I wonder about how posters on this forum keep and feel about the Sabbath. I am not interested in speculation as much as I am interested in specific personal covenants relating to the Sabbath. 1. What do you do by covenant (prior to the Sabbath) to prepare for the Sabbath? 2. According to your specific covenant and behavior - When does your Sabbath begin? 3. When does your Sabbath end? 4. Again according to covenant - How does your Sabbath differ from other days of work? 5. By covenant what are your Sabbath obligations? Must do and must not do? 6. How do you feel about your Sabbath? The Traveler

There was an anti-bigamy law passed I believe in the 1830's in Illinois. I don't have a source handy, but Im sure someone will find it. A side note here on laws concerning religion. The year was 1829 in the state of New York when a law (with teeth) was passed that prevented the threat of life or property for belonging to an non Trinitarian religion - even though the constitution speaks of freedom of religion. Never-the-less it would be over 100 years before the plunder of native American lives and property would be prevented and respected through out the nation in the courts of law. The NY law was specifically crafted to prevent the plunder of Jewish life and property and did nothing when the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were plundered and driven from New York state. The Traveler

I think you are speculating (playing without a full deck) incorrectly. I doubt that there would have been near the problems if the saints had not disarmed (espically the cannon) and stood down the Nauvoo Legion. What this does show is that the saints were willing to go beyond reason and good sense in efforts for peace. As to broken laws that you are claiming - I was not aware of any polygamy laws in Ill. prior to 1845. Would you please provide your source? The Traveler

Following the murder of Joseph and his brother there was a lot of tension in western Ill. There were four events or types of events that led directly to the death of 3000 members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS due to starvation and exposer. 1. Governor Ford promised that if the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were to surrender their arms and stand down the Nauvoo Legion that Ill. state and federal troops would defend them. It was also agreed that the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS would leave Nauvoo by the spring of 1846. The orders given by governor Ford are part of Ill. history. No protection was ever provided and the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were left without means of defense. No effort was ever made to disarm the enemies of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. 2. By September of 1845 homes and farms of LDS members in country areas away from Nauvoo, were attacked and burned and some members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS killed. All members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS came to Nauvoo there supplies were limited. Legal papers were filed with the state concerning these events, but without relief for the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. 3. Starting in October attacks were taking place on members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS with in Nauvoo. On November 19th 1845 Edmund Durfee was shot to death and his home and one other burned to the ground. By the middle of December several members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were killed. Recorded in the News Paper the Nauvoo Neighbor. Papers were filed in Handcock County with the state. 4. In January of 1846 orders were given by Governor Ford for State troops to march to Nauvoo and place the town under martial law. It was leaked to the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS leaders that the “Mormons” would not be allowed to leave in the spring and that all leaders would be taken and held prisoners. It was believe the leaders would be executed in a manner similar to Joseph Smith. Most (about 15000) members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS left Nauvoo when the Mississippi froze over and negotiated not to return if the remaining members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS would be allowed to leave in the spring. The governor of Iowa warned that because of trouble with native Americans the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS were in grave danger. Since they was unarmed it was believed that they would be killed, but instead they were assisted by native Americans. However by spring 3000 of the 15000 or 1 in 5 members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS died either at Winter Quarters or on their way there. The names of those that died are maintained by the State of Nebraska and are buried at what is now a state park in what is now known as the town of Florence Nebraska. The Traveler

I do not think this is the beginning of the ending war - Nor do I think this is a sign that needs not concern anybody. I hope for peace. Sorry sgallan: I do not think your post helps or add anything worth while. I have Islamic friends and also friends in Israel. I do not see anything to be pleased or smug about. The Traveler

I tend to think that but to argue the point is another problem. It could be that becoming convinced of a thing and then making everything fit that paradigm has flaws over seeking and considering new stuff - which also needs to be a most important consideration. I tend to look towards the journey as the important notion rather than focussing on the destination. One thing Gandhi taught is that to put forward a truth, one must be the example and Gandhi was a student of Jesus that taught the same thing. Perhaps you have seen me post in the past that no one should ever criticize that which they cannot improve. Both Gandhi and Jesus did everything they taught. Perhaps the problem is in those that read things in scripture and then think it applies to someone else. The Traveler

One thing that has always bothered me is that the Dead Sea Scrolls were left by a group that was looking for the Messiah to come (they were within 5 years of the date). Yet there is no indication among any of the scrolls that they identified Jesus as the Messiah. There is in the New Testament several individuals (including some apostles) that may have had connection with the Dead Sea Scrolls society but there is no conclusive evidence. So here is my wonderment. Why is it that those that studied the scriptures carefully as a group did not recognize Jesus and only those that were more dependent on the spirit, convinced. Why was there so much disagreement between scripture experts (believers in the written word) and those that follow the spirit as their primary source of such things? The Traveler

Perhaps my post was too long -- I wondered what some think of Jesus. We tend to suger coat ideas and concepts. I have never seen a painting of Jesus - outside of the cross that depect him as he may looked walking the dusty desert. We critize the Jews for not recognizing Jesus because he did not come with all his power and glory but my question is - how would we recognize him without his power and glory? The Traveler

Animals do not remember lost loved ones for years. Despite the thinking of some over the top humans - few animals show much kindness (out side of certain breeds). For the most part I am disappointed with efforts to compare animals with humans. I am impressed with the post that humans are intelligent. I have long argued that humans have the ability to learn any cognitive behavior. Though we are born with some variation of abilities but we are in essence what we have learned to be and we respond as we have learned to respond. The Traveler

I think you should talk to your bishop about this. :) Bishops are given special spiritual guidance. There are judges in the kingdom in the same manner of Moses and the judges he appointed. The Traveler The Traveler

I agree with Ryan that not being married is not necessarily a sin but I would add that it depends on why a person is not married. To know to do good and to not do it is a sin. I would also add that marriage is more than a blessing it is a commandment for those that would live the highest laws of G-d. In the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS we are taught that not all that is possible is always completed in this life. Therefore we believe that G-d has granted for some an opportunity in the next life to complete things desired and commanded in this life that for whatever reason were not completed for no reason to the individual. In other words those that do not have opportunity to marry in this life can be married by proxy (because once leaving this life there is no other way to marry - it must be done by the living). This is one of the primary reasons for the 1000 years or rest (rest meaning to do G-d's work).The Traveler

I had a formal debate with an atheist about the existence of G-d. We debated at work during our lunch hour. After a couple of months I conceded that he won. When I found out what he thought was G-d I agreeded with him and said that I do not believe that such a G-d exist either. The Traveler I disagree, the burden of proof is always with the person that desires the truth. To the fool that does not care there is never enough proof of anything. The Traveler So what if the person who desires the truth is the atheist? How can someone desire truth and have their mind made up? If someone wants to know the truth about electrons it is up to them to consider opinions and determine how to validate. If they do not know how to validate a thing they make a big mistake in assuming anything. Especially if they assume someone else must figure it out before they will consider it. The Traveler

I disagree, the burden of proof is always with the person that desires the truth. To the fool that does not care there is never enough proof of anything. The Traveler

Just for the record AK and Ray: I believe anyone that wants in their heart to overcome evil that the L-rd will help them. I also believe anyone that wants into the top place in the Celestial Kingdom will be there. I believe the people that will not make it are those that once they understand what the CK is really like; then realize that they want to be somewhere else. The rest is just semantics and misunderstandings. The Traveler

Precicely. As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become. May I add - is there a difference between a zygote and an adult human? The supreme court says yes but a zygote is created with everything necessary to become human but there is a lot of evolution and motherly help necessary before it can be recognized as human. The Traveler

I think Jesus was very clear on how to identify his followers. I think he said something like "By this shall you know my disciples - if they have loved one to another." Jesus also said that we will do the deeds of him that we worship in our hearts. If we worship G-d we will do his will. But if we worship Satan in our hearts we will do his will. Please understand that I did not make up this concept or idea but I do believe it. When the Jews heard this doctrine they wanted to kill Jesus and the Jews were the covenant people??? BTW Jesus said that the desire to take life is most extream expression of Satan's will. The Traveler

The point I wish to make is not about the church of Jesus Christ of LDS being the only religion to receive religious attacks nor do I want to highlight any particular faith for attacks. My point is that the attackers are not Christian and their methods are the same. Jesus talked about wolfs in sheep's clothing that come among the flock pretending to understand G-d's mercy but intending to show no mercy. Often we think the enemy of my enemy is my friend so if we do not like someone or some religion we tend to enjoy attacks and insults made by their enemies. My point is that this is not Christian. The Samaritans were enemies of Jews but Jesus taught that any person doing good is a friend to all that are respect goodness. Jesus criticized those of his same Jewish faith for their false deeds and recognized the Samaritans that were enemies to the Jews for their good deeds even though the Samaritans were known for their false doctrines. In general I find that most religious peoples tend to criticize others for doctrine and care little about their deeds or fruit. I would like to make my stand clear - I will stand by anyone that treats their enemies with forgiveness, kindness and love. I will stand against anyone that treat others with venom and contempt - especially in environments where the accuser has no voice (like a publication). The Traveler

The Festival of the Water Libation by Rabbi Chaim Richman The Temple Institute, Jerusalem **During the Festival of Sukkot, a special ceremony took place every day in the Holy Temple, known as the Festival of the Water Libation. Each morning of the festival, during the daily sacrifice, water was poured onto the altar in a special joyous service. At the foothills of Mount Moriah, down below in the City of David, flows a natural spring called Shiloach. This spring is ancient, and as it is located literally in the shadow of the Holy Temple, it has always had spiritual significance for Israel. It is the original source of Jerusalem's water. Every day of the festival, the priests descended down to the Shiloach, accompanied by all the congregation assembled in the Temple. There, they filled a golden flask with 3 lug (about 1/2 liter) of the pure water. Ascending back up, carrying the flask with song and elation with that singular feeling that comes only from fulfilling the Holy One's will, the gathering entered back into the Temple through the Water Gate, one of the gates on the southern side of the court (it received its name on account of this event-Mishna Shekalim 6, 3). As they entered the gate, their steps were greeted by the sound of trumpets and shofar-blasts, in fulfillment of the prophet Isaiah's words (12:3) "With joy you shall draw water out of the wells of salvation." Once in the Temple, the priest who had the honor of performing this service now carries the golden flask up the altar ramp. At the top, he turns to his left. Since the ramp is located at the south side of the altar, this means that the Cohen now faces the southwest corner; it is here that the libations were poured. Here at this corner, two silver cups were fixed on the top of the altar, sitting next to each other. The one further east received the wine libations which are poured out every day at the time of the daily Tamid sacrifice; the other was designated for this service, which took place exclusively on Sukkot. "With joy you shall draw water out of the wells of salvation" (Isaiah 12:3). Based on this verse, the drawing of water from the Shiloach spring and its libation upon the altar of G-d was accompanied by great rejoicing and celebration in the Holy Temple. In fact, this joy was so immense, and the celebrations so uplifting, that the sages of Israel emphatically stated: "Whoever has never seen the celebrations of the Festival of the Water Libation-has never experienced true joy in his life" (ibid. 5, 1). But what was the cause of such great happiness, to the extent that this statement was recorded for all posterity? Indeed, what could be so moving about the simple act of gathering up some water, and pouring it onto the altar? True, there is always a feeling of joy when an individual has the opportunity to fulfill the will of G-d. And true, too, that this observance has always been associated as an propitious harbinger for the coming season's rainfall. But there is still more significance to this great rejoicing "Closeness to G-d is Good" The answer can be found in the words of King David, expressing one of the purest of human emotions: "But as for me-only closeness to G-d is good" (Psalms 73:28). Man, being a most limited and finite creature relates to everything by comparison. When we consider something to be "good" or "bad" it is solely on the basis of experience; if something is thought to be good, it can only be in relation to something else which we have previously encountered and know to be good. But David said that all pursuits, endeavors and aspirations are but folly for him, for the only thing in which he had any interest, that which uplifted him and motivated him, was the ultimate goodness to which nothing can be compared only closeness to G-d. This is the true aspiration of the Jew who wishes to live his life in connection to G-d, guided by His commandments and determined to sanctify himself through them. And it is in the Holy Temple that this pursuit reaches its resounding crescendo, for there, unlike any other spot on earth, G-d beckons to man to come forward and recognize that the universe has direction, life has meaning and ultimately, that not only does man seek to know his Creator, but the Creator seeks man as well. Thus at the celebrations in the Temple, the famed sage Hillel enigmatically recited: "My feet lead me to a place that I love to go. And the Holy One, blessed be He, says 'If you come to My house, I will come to your house. And if you do not come to My house, I will not come to yours'-for the verse states (Ex. 20:21) 'In all places where I will cause My name to be mentioned, I will come to you and bless you'." The Epitome of True Happiness is Spiritual Fulfillment This realization of connection to G-d, and a life led for Divine purpose, is the true secret to happiness. This is King David's message in these words. Sukkot, itself "the time of our joy," is the season for great rejoicing-and its climax is at the water libation. This is the holiday of true faith in "the shadow of the Divine Presence." When the heart is freed and opened to this experience, the true happiness of spiritual fulfillment actually leads to prophetic enlightenment. The sages teach that prophecy itself can only come about through joy. A prophet can never receive enlightenment unless he is in a state of joy, for the Divine presence itself only rests on one who is joyful. Thus with regard to the prophet Elisha, the verse states (II Kings 3:15) "And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the L-rd came upon him." Drawing Down the Spirit of Prophecy Herein lies the true secret of the "festival of the water libation," states the Jerusalem Talmud: the great joy was in the receiving of prophetic inspiration. For the Hebrew word for the "drawing" of the water, sho'eva, also indicates drawing in a different direction-the drawing down of prophetic enlightenment. Thus "whoever has never seen the celebrations of the Festival of the Water Libation, has never experienced true joy in his life"-for it was here that prophets like Jonah the son of Amitai received their prophecy. The Jerusalem Talmud relates that Jonah was not expecting any revelation, but merely arrived at the festival of the water libation along with all the other holiday pilgrims. He was so overcome with joy that he received Divine inspiration and in turn, there can be no greater joy than this. Thus, on the holiday which is predisposed to joy, we find the epitome of true celebration taking place in the hallowed courtyards of the L-rd. There, His people experienced such spiritual happiness that it resulted in no less than the highest brush with the Divine possible for a human being to attain: the prophetic experience. All this came about by the fulfillment of the will of G-d in His presence. ** Imagine if you will, a poor man, young, barley of age to legally speak in public, with no real education, unknown to the clergy and foreign to the over 1800 year old religious establishment (see Matt 1:17) that officially celebrated all that was known from all the known scriptures. This young upstart form a backwater area of Galilee, known for its rebels, rift-raft and general lack of civilization, at the most joyous, wonderful and sacred moment of the celebration at the end of Sukkot, the Water Libation, when the water was to be pored out, suddenly calls out to all at the temple, in a booming voice. (Follow with me beginning at John 7:Verse 37) 37 ¶ In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) 40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. 41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? 42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? 43 So there was a division among the people because of him. 44 And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him. 45 ¶ Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? 46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. 47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? 48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? 49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. A few important points. The words of Jesus caused a great division of the people who up til then were more or less members of a single 2000 year old traditional religion. He was opposed overwhelmingly by the religious establishment and clergy. Those that followed him were accused of not knowing the scriptures and teaching contrary to the scriptures (the law) by the most acclaimed experts of the Jewish religion. If Jesus were to post incognito among us, I am sure that some would quote scriptures and say his teaching are blasphemous and not “Biblical”, just as when he walked the first time among man,. As before they most likely would prove, or think they proved their point from the scriptures. How could anyone know who he really was if he was not announced with the trump of angles. If he were here today how can we recognize him? How well do you really know him? Look carefully my friends and ask yourself this question, has his spirit stirred among us in our day and it did anciently? If it has, could the forces of darkness that calls itself religious allow it to be unopposed? Would not the forces of darkness claim to be light and denounce the light as darkness? Would today be different? I do not think so! The Traveler