Traveler

Another two cents worth from me concerning miracles. Miracles are based on faith. I hope I do not have to explain this in more detail. Paul tells us that faith is evidence. What I would like to point out here is that evidence is not proof but what evidence does is give us hope to continue. Evidence can be both to bring us (continue) to truth and to tempt us (continue) from truth dependent on what we seek. I believe that Jesus taught that what we seek we will find and I believe this applies to what we would like to believe or what we would like not to believe. So what do we want to believe - the truth or a counterfeit of truth? The best example of miracles bringing us to a correct or counterfeit truth is given in the Book of Mormon concerning the planting of a seed and how to know if it is a good seed. This teaching is quite similar to the parable of the seed as taught by Jesus - but I like to call it the parable of the soil because the difference is not in the seed or the rain and sunshine but in the preparation of soil. Only the soil that was prepared (rocks removed, weeds removed, softened from being made hard from being walked upon) will allow the seed of truth to grow. The Traveler

The only people that don't seem to be bothered by that are the women in the LDS Church. At least I've never known one to complain or want to be in the priesthood. I have a problem with statements that are not true. In Hebrew the word for Priesthood has male gender. A Priest is a male. A priestess is female. By definition a women cannot be ordained to a priesthood. The second problem I have is that it is claimed the women in the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS are not ordained as priestess to perform ordinances. This is a lie and fabrication. Women are ordained and they perform ordinances - but they are different than the ordinances that are performed by men ordained as priests. It has always been my understanding that ordinations on earth are temporary and that both men and women (if proven loyal to covenants) will serve in the kingdom of heaven as priests and priestesses. Because this doctrine is taught in the temple many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS do not know how to discuss it openly. I have not made any reference to the temple that is not in material openly published but I suggest that this topic cannot be discussed in detail. My only point is to bring to the attention of this forum that there are lies being circulated about doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS - and I ask that such false doctrine not continue. Thanks The Traveler

So it's not the miracle that has value, it's the story. Oh. I like stories. I have always believed that G-d has no fear of man nor does he hide miracles from the "light of day". It would appear to me that those that did not believe that a miracle flood could occur were not on the ark when it did occurred. The point of life is not to experience miracles but I agree somewhat with Snow (not completely) that miracles seem to be smaller and closed to the light of day in our era. I have read with interest as posters have given opinions as to why. I think the reason has been lost in the purpose of miracles in the first place. My Thoughts The Traveler

It is my opinion that no one falls into hardly anything. Usually we get to where we are, through some effort. There is a parable of a ward and a young couple thought of buying a home in the ward so they went to check things out. The found a member of the ward and asked what kind of a ward it was. The member asked, "What kind of a ward are you coming from?" The couple said that it was a friendly and loving ward and it was hard for them to leave. The member said, "You will find this ward just like your other ward. Another couple was thinking of moving into the ward and found the same member and asked the same question concerning the kind of ward. Again the member asked, "What kind of a ward are you coming from?" The couple said their previous ward was full of fighting and backbiting and self righteous clicks and that they could not wait to move. The member said, "You will find this ward just like your other ward. The point here is that along the line of what Jesus taught - You will find what it is you seek. I am an old traveler and a long way from my home. I am wandering as a stranger in a strange land but I am sure you will find what you seek. The Traveler

Friend GB-UK: I submit that we are not dealing with wacko people - nor should you rely on luck to perserve your life. I submit that we are dealing with "Secret Combinations" as testified to in the Book of Mormon. As far as what motivates these people? Consider the words of Jesus in John 8:41-44 "Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication: we have one Father, even G-d. Jesus said unto them, If G-d were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded froth and came from G-d; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech: even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." The Traveler

I have wondered if the famed star of Bethlehem was a supernova that was about 600 light years away. There are accounts that the star could be seen during the day and that its brightness was like the sun. A supernova between 400 and 600 light years away could cause that kind of light plus enough energy to flores the o-zone like a florescent light that would explain the 3 days and nights without darkness in the Book of Mormon. The Traveler

I hinted earlier that sometimes I think some of the greatest miracles are overlooked because we are so use to them. For example the creation of human life. The birth of a child is so common and sometimes so neglected and abused by parents that we may miss how good and divine the creation of life is - as well as the miracle in the relationship that allows it to happen - even to the point of refusing or attempting to force by law that such a relatiionship should not be recognized above relationships that cannot bring about life. Another example is prayer. That we can have access to the most brilliant and intelligent life form in the universe and able to transcend send time and space by prayer - but since so many think prayer is a means to tell G-d how to solve our problems they may miss the miracle of prayer. Then there are the many miracles of man. That we can hear a person speaking thousands of miles away and hear him before those sitting where he is speaking. We can travel around the world in hours - some can circle the planet in less than two hours - we can travel fast enough to warp time. We can kill with great weapons from great distances - but we hardly fear war. The most common death is that of accident. We have figured how to live longer - but it seems that we still do not know how to live better or recognize the divine in the simple things which we live, experience and overlook every day. The greatest miracles just are not recognized because they happen so often that when we find a way to lessen the effect of a miracle we think G-d has failed us. The Traveler

He did give examples and demonstrated "the Way". He also told us that one day his "kingdom" would be established on earth as it is in heaven. Perhaps we should ask how such a kingdom would be organized and authorized? Every kingdom of the ancient world had an organization and authorization - most likely G-d is not the only individual that acts with authority within his kingdom. Are the churches of today more like a kingdom or the current popular organizational structure based on a democracy and the authority of the majority? An interesting side note: The "first born" of the kingdom were the essence of the organization and authority - When the "first born" of Egypt was lost in the days of Moses it ended that dynasty's kingdom or authority to rule. The Traveler

The question in my mind is not so much what everybody thinks happened in time past but what we are prepared to expect now. Since G-d and his work is the same to day, yesterday and tomorrow - what happenes now is the key to the past and the past and present is the key to the future. The Traveler

Water. Everything else to drink begins and ends with water. Water is the only necessity - all the other drinks that add stuff that others like for what-ever reason add little or nothing to your survival. Without water you will die in hours or days depending on your environment. The Traveler

All references to G-d prior to the fall are plural - For example: Let "US" make man in "OUR" image. The scriptures indicate that Satan is a g-d - I am not sure what you are trying to do with the word "true" - I am sure you can make up what-ever you like regardless what the scriptures say so that you can believe you are right in thinking there is only one singular g-d. But here is a thought for you. If man deals with the same G-d before and after the fall then there is no need for a Mediator and the doctrine that man needs a savior to atone for sin before man can have a relationship with G-d is false - and the Jews that sought the life of Jesus for claiming he was the way and no man come unto the Father but by him was justified by scripture! The Traveler I was primarily referring to those who pretend to be LDS or new LDS or potential converts, but who, in actuality are critics hoping to present serious accusations in the guise of sincere inquiry. While I did mention the interchange between s4c and you, it was primarily the OP's intentions I found suspicious. Furthermore, my suspicions could be totally off-base. I believe I've discerned correctly, but in labeling activity "unChristian," I tried to condemn the activity, not those who I may have thought were guilty. I find myself agreeing with this notion - and it plays in all directions - including some members (in name) of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS that ask questions in an attempt to make a snare (to catch someone in a doctrine trap). I think Jesus was quite clear that he and his sheep do not use such methods. Which is what I think was the point in starting this thread. Thanks The Traveler

Then his replay I always wonder do they ever think they have it wrong Spotting a wolf in sheep clothing is not difficult when using the advice of Jesus. He gives the example in the question "Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs if thistles?" This is so clear - grapes are not found on thorn bushes nor or figs found with thistles. Paul also touched on this subject when he said not to teach any other gospel but the gospel of Christ. The sheep respond to the voice of Christ. They teach the joy in their hearts (the gospel they hear and love) and do not teach against other religions. False teachers have no real joy in Christ so their joy is not in teaching of Christ but in teaching against the light. BTW - telling a wolf that they are a wolf seldoms inspires them to become sheep. The Traveler

You are saying you feel close to God when you are married. In this marriage, what behaviors would you say brings you closer to God?Thank you Some points to consider: 1. Jesus often refered to the marriage covenant as an example of the covenant one makes with G-d. 2. The creation is the one most refered to work of G-d that most believers in G-d use to establish his greatness - It is in marriage that G-d blesses a man and a woman as creators with him of human life. 3. G-d does not bless any other relationship or devotions of mankind with powers of creation. You asked about becoming closer to G-d. I believe that one can only come closer to G-d by understanding who and what he is. For example, we call G-d our Father in Heaven. We learn to love as he loves as a father (or mother) loving their children. (even when the children misbehave). We learn to have mercy as a Father (or Mother) having mercy for children. One can say that they can learn this things without being a parent - having had experiences of being a parent and experiences with other outside of parenthood - I do not believe it. A parent is a prototype g-d to their children - the type of parent they are demonstrates what the believe of G-d the Father. The Traveler

The covenant of marriage and executing the responsibilities of parenthood. The Traveler

In Ecclesiastes chapter 1 it tells us that nothing new ever happens. Our day is the same as the ancient days. Anciently in the days of Christ, Jesus was criticized for his contradictions with established scripture known as “The Law”. (See John 7:47- 49) Note also that those making this claim were all experts in scripture. In fact, if it were not for these experts in scripture that anciently opposed Jesus the Bible of today would not even exist. As we examine the teachings of Jesus and the Prophets we will note that consistency in doctrine was not a major concern. What we find instead is a concern over inconsistency of doctrine with behavior. Or in other words, hypocrisy. In fact Jesus even taught that the only way to identify a “false teacher” is by their fruits and never by their doctrine. Why would anyone that believes in Jesus be more concerned over doctrine than fruits? The answer is obvious - they worship G-d with their mouths and with their lips they honor him but they have removed their hearts far from him. Many times I hear criticism of individuals that seem to be a little “home spun” with their doctrine. They seem to have rather strange ideas. But they treat others with great respect, kindness and concern. In short, if someone is not an example of how their doctrine inspires them to enlightened fruits or deeds - I am not interested in their doctrine. If a doctrine inspires better people to be even better - I am interested. For example, I love the concept in the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS that every member should serve in a calling and that callings are made without qualifications. Therefore everyone can be inspired and helped by every other member. Now to the doctrine of one true G-d. Prior to the fall of man there were many g-ds but since the fall for fallen man there is only one true G-d of salvation. This is the Mediator G-d, Jesus The Christ, the G-d of both the Old and New Testament. This doctrine inspires those that believe it to live worthy (which means to live by faith, repentance and the covenant of baptism - Jesus himself being the example - note that Jesus did not just teach doctrine but he demonstrated being worthy by being obedient). The consistent doctrine and behavior is that Jesus is the one true G-d that is the Mediator for all to G-d the Father and accordingly every true follower of Jesus is a mediator to the world by example of obedience to that which is true. Anyone that says they believe in Jesus and are not examples of obedience to Jesus’s commandments are liars and servants of Satan. And if one is to believe the scriptures - Satan is “The g-d of this world” - proving that there is more than one g-d. The Traveler

I am sorry you understood me to imply that gays are 2nd class citizens? I never intended to imply that. I do not think someone has to be a parent to qualify for a first class of citizen. What I did mean to imply is that they are 2nd class parents at their very best possible. Getting your own children is not a right of citizenship. Citizens do not own children or have default right to them - Children are to me a higher class of citizen than adults. Having children is a responsibility not a right. For me the only 1st class parents are a father and a mother each fulfilling their responsibilities as a father and a mother. I agree that a gay couple that is loving and caring and willing to sacrifice their personal passions and desires for children is better than straight couples that prefer following their personal passions and desires rather than care for children. We agree on that point (even though I see some irony it that) - what I am not sure if is if you really believe a father and a mother doing what mothers and fathers are supposed to do is really the best option. You kind of sometimes agree but then you say gay couples should be equal because that is better than children in homes where they are not loved and cared for - Which is a point that I agree 100% with. The operative notion here is personal passions and desires on the one hand and the loving and care of children on the other. Which is the priority? If someone is willing to put their personal passions and desires at a higher priority than creating and caring for children - that in my mind makes them 2nd class parents. And I do not care if they are straight, gay or any other possibility. If a married man or married women has an affair - regardless of what-ever they do, they are second class parents (or worse) in my mind. If you are going to put any personal pleasure, passion or desire before taking responsibility for children - I cannot accept that thinking as 1st class parent thinking. In fact I consider that the very essence of child abuse if a child is in your care. Where do you draw the line for protecting your children from abuse? The Traveler

I am sorry that I have not made my point clear. If a father and a mother are not upholding their responsibilities for their children and society and its laws implies in anyway that this failure to the children can be conpensated for - We have all failed the children - it is not just the failure of parents - it is the failure of everybody. If the best we can offer is gay parents - we have failed. But thank heavens for at least providing gay parents so we do not have force children into something worse. I am sad that we have failed children to the point that we must admit this is the best that our society can do for many of our children. I am also sad that this admission as failure to our children is not very popular in our society. The Traveler

Point 1. G-d is not just to force all mankind to suffer because of Adam and Eve without any choice in the matter. To punish us for Adam and Eve is not justice - I do not believe that G-d is unjust. I have no idea what you believe because you have not said what you believe regarding this matter. Point 2. The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil is symbolic of our current state. We experience both good and evil in this life. Even if someone was to live choosing only good - as Jesus did they will still suffer because of evil. It is not just the evil that suffer - those that do evil cause all to suffer. That is part of the charactor of evil. Again you do not offer anything to the discussion of what it means to know good and evil. Point3. It is the nature of that which is physical to focus on the wants and needs of self. It is the attraction of self gradification that draws people to sin. That which is physical is more likely to reinforce self gradification that that which is spiritual. That G-d allows us to be tempted is not to say that he tempted us. I do think that G-d encourages us to exist in a suituation where we can be tempted - evening knowing in advance that we all will sin. Yes I believe G-d knew Adam and Eve would sucum to Satan's temptation - but I believe he still allowed it - even realized that it would benefit Adam and Eve - and all of us. Again you have said nothing as to why you think G-d forced Adam and Eve to be in the Garden knowing that Satan would tempt them and that they would fall - not much of a choice for Adam and Eve in my mind? That would be like making your children play on the freeway knowing they would be run over and then blaiming them when it happened saying something like did I not tell you to be careful playing on the freeway. G-d did not warn Adam and Eve about Satan - whose fault then is that? The Traveler

I agree that children being brought up gay couples as better than feeding them to crocodiles. The fact that something worse can be found is not the point - please forgive me for the extreme example. To be honest I am not concerned about the rights of parents (biological or otherwise) as I am about the rights and needs of children. I glad you agree that "the ideal" is that children be brought up by their natural parents in a kind, loving and caring environment. I will go even farther to say that children have the right to be brought up properly by their biological parents and when they are not society and their parents have failed them. I realize that one parent cannot force another parent to execute their responsibilities - that is not the point either. My point is - what ought to be and what society has as its first obligation to children and the next generation. That is to make clear - without exception what is really the best and ideal. Our society is failing badly - 60 percent of the children being borne today in our society will not be raised in the home of their biological parents and that is not to say that those that are; that society is encouraging the parents to consider the children's needs before their own passions and desires. I do not believe that homosexuality is the main problem and I am sorry that we are stuck on that. I believe that if society was doing its part that everyone would believe that the best for children is to be brought up properly by their biological parents; understanding and knowing the love and care of a mother and what mothers add to society and the love and care of a father and what fathers offer to society. If for any reason, that is not possible, then I believe that our next best is to offer to children the next best situation that reflects the environment of their biological parents of a loving father and a loving mother. I do not think that we ever ought to compromise the importances of fathers and mothers performing their responsibilities. I do not think we should ever give the impression that a father or a mother is really not that important for children or society and can easily be replaced with hardly any effect to care about on children or society. I have no problem with gay couples adopting children and making sacrifices to help society. My problem is what many come to assume that such should be given the same priority as a father and mother - the reason is that I cannot accept the message is send about the needs for fathers and mothers. It is about children and without fathers and mothers there will be no children. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on our core beliefs. I do want to make certain that it is understood that my core belief is in the role of fathers and the role of mothers being recognized as the single most important right for children. Anything that distracts from that understanding - I cannot and will not support. The Traveler

It is my impression that G-d would rather that we show our love and respect for him by joyfully obeying his commandments than to fall before him for every moment of all the rest of eternity. The Traveler

There are two things I would like to respond to in your post. First I agree that we do not condemn those that disagree with us. However there is a second point. That point is that we recognize that their choice is not needed for society to exist and that society does not have an obligation to force by law the notion that their behavior must be given incentive equal to the encouragement we need to maintain for biological parents to love and care for their own children. I cannot accept that such thinking that loving biologocal parents should be or can be replaced without possible effect of children. We must first take into account what is best for children or that something other than loving biological parents willing to love and sacfirice will be equal or improve for children what a loving and a proper relationship between the biological parents will do for children. I know that some can desire for children that which is better than what many children have but it is not the best that can be done for children nor is it equal to the best. I do not believe we should ever forget what is best for the children. The Traveler

There is a reason that scriptures and such things from G-d are given symbolically. When Jesus was asked why he taught symbolically in parables he answered so that only the covenant followers would understand and that the world as a whole would not get it.In the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS our doctrine understands that the fall of Adam was not just a choice of Adam and Eve. We believe that the Father had a great counsel in Heaven where he discussed his plan with each and every one of us to come to experience and understand things that at the time only he understood and had experienced. This plan included several things. One thing was that we obtain a physical body (in the image and likeness of his) and have physical experiences (as he had). But he also pointed out that there could be risks in having a physical body. The greatest risk is that we could be altered forever from our spiritual state by the almost un-resistible propensity to sin. The only way to permanently overcome sin would come through experience of the pain (including death) of sin and an atonement by a savior G-d willing to sacrifice their life for the rest of us. Thus we would have knowledge of evil. We would also be able to sacrifice ourselves in a similar manner for others. This would come through loyalty to the commandments of G-d and following the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Thus we would have knowledge of good. The problem is that once we come to a knowledge of good and evil we would have to make a choice between them. This is called agency. We would become an agent of good or an agent of evil. There was another problem - once tarnished by evil we would become corrupted and unworthy to live with our Father in heaven as members of his kingdom. Now we see how the atonement of Jesus Christ enabled the Father plan (which pleased the Father concerning Jesus). The ancient Hebrew name and word Adam is a term that means man. The ancient Hebrew name and word Eve is a term that means “Mother of those that will live”. For me the symbolism of the tree of Knowledge of Good and evil is accepting the coming to earth, obtaining a body, experiencing the joy of good and the pain of evil and the acceptance of Jesus Christ to redeem us from evil. For G-d to cast us out of his kingdom of heaven without us having a choice would make G-d unjust. If we had no choice but to become fallen and live on earth because of Adam’s transgression would make G-d unjust. For G-d to allow us to become fallen without any hope, would make G-d unloving. Thus partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is symbolic of each of us buying into G-d the Father, G-d the Son (Jesus Christ) and the G-d the Holy Ghost and having faith that they would lead us into a higher state (salvation - resurrection) that we could never obtain on our own. Thus G-d the Father, G-d the Son (Jesus Christ) and G-d the Holy Ghost together accomplish that which none of them had power to do as individual G-ds on their own. They achieved the highest achievement that there is. They make the impossible possible in an incredible act of love and service that frees man in the same manner that they (G-ds) are free (as spoken of in John 10). That we can be exalted to a status of citizenship in the Kingdom of G-d and in his heaven that they enjoy and know what they know. But G-d realized that some, having experienced evil would turn away and desire something else and in his great love he has provided a place where they will be happy. And thus we all have become partakers of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Traveler

You and I see something different in scripture. I see the garden epoch as symbolic - including the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. The tree of life was always there but it was not needed until after the fall. I see the atonement of Jesus Christ in the symbolism of the tree of life. Unlike you I do not see G-d keeping Adam and Eve from the tree of life - I see G-d making sure that no one came to it unless they came on the right way. I see Jesus Christ in other symbolism of the garden epoch as well. For example: At the end of chapter 2 of Genesis, G-d places cherubim and a flaming sword to "keep the WAY" to the tree of life. Jesus said he is the "WAY" and if you search all the scriptures you will find only one place where anyone with a sword and fire has anything to do with salvation and that is in Revelation chapter 19. So either the scriptures are nuts and full of nonsense stuff or there is meaning and things to learn that are important. If you can come up with something different I will listen but I am quite sure that Jesus and his role was known and symbolically hidden right from the start. BTW - If I were you I would be careful believing what Satan says - he is a liar and more likely not tell something that is true than something that is a lie. If you can find anyone else that is know for telling the truth saying the same thing then I would be more likely to believe it is true - but unlike you I do not believe knowledge of good and evil (by itself) will make anyone like the g-ds. The Traveler

Hello friend: My best friend from the time I was 5 until after my mission and serving in the military was a boy. We did everything together, we stood by each other and we loved each other - we never engaged in sexual activity most likely because we were taught not to. I have been attracted to many men but because I was taught not to seek sexual pleasure with men that never happened - not even an experiment. But it was not without counter example or effort to teach me otherwise - my best friend's brother grew up homosexual and died of aids. He was not so different from my friend in his youth - except he experimented with things we didn't.To be honest I have had difficulties marrying a woman. I have written a book titled 101 things a man can say to his buddies but never to his wife. It was never published and was written with humor and frustration over the differences of men and women. Much in my marriage I have not done because I wanted to but because I believed it was right. My marriage is the greatest accomplishment and joy of my life - it did not just happen - I had to learn to make it happen. More often than not that meant sacrificing what I wanted (yes even in sex) for the greater benefit of my wife. Now I may not be an expert in these things but everyone that I know that enjoys their marriage says the same thing - It will not happen just letting what will happen, happen. Such joy comes from great effort and sacrifice and learning and changing things in their life. If a person is unwilling to change themself for the benefit of others they will never perform true service. I am not looking for excuses for not doing something - I am looking for real non-selfish things to believe in something - And I do not see it with homosexuality. The Traveler

That is one that I agree is good. Since you suggested one may I suggest some more? How about: Loving your neighbor. Doing good to those that despise you Forgiving others. Going the 2nd mile (few know what this really means) Honoring your father and mother Having Charity Keeping the Sabbath (by covenant) Showing kindness when no one expects kindness. Living by G-d's commandments with joy. Being the servant of all Being a peace maker Being meek and humble Paying Tithing (as a covenant) Morning with those the morn. Assist the needy Concern and sacrifice for children Treat the L-rd's name with respect Pray often Pray for those that despitefully use you Seek the Wisdom of G-d Avoid evil and marry according the G-d's blessing I can think of lots more - Did your question indicate that you may have confusion discerning good things? The Traveler