Traveler

My great great grandfather and his family were living polygamy by commandment. His personal journal on the subject is most interesting. First - He never sought a second wife but only took a second wife by commandment. Second - He indicated that most of the polygamy of the early LDS was adulterous because the multiple wives were sought out side of commandment. Thus this is how I understand marriage. A man and a woman are commanded to marry according to the law of G-d. In this a man may take to himself a woman of his choice. But an man is never to take another wife but it be commanded of G-d. Let me draw a parallel to the commandment "Thou shalt not Kill". This means that man never has the right to decide to take someone's life. That is according to the commandment. Yet we see a number of times that G-d commanded that someone be killed. This was not in violation of the commandment not to kill because it was not man that made the decision but G-d. If fact many scholars agree that the commandment should be better translated "Thou shalt not Murder." Since the commandment to take a second wife can only come from the president and since he has commanded that there be no second wives taken in our day is not a contradiction or change in commandment. Because our society is not able to abide polygamy; G-d does not command it. But we must all realize that those that covenant with G-d are under obligation to do what G-d commands - even and especially if we may not like it at the time. The Traveler So the person must be commanded by God to have a second wife before they could have had one? Exactly - if G-d does not directly intervene and allow the second (+) wife - man cannot decide that for themselve. Abraham and Jacob are examples - note that they were the prophets at the time and the means by which commandments came. King David, on the other hand committed sin in taking to wife the mother of Solomon. The Traveler

My great great grandfather and his family were living polygamy by commandment. His personal journal on the subject is most interesting. First - He never sought a second wife but only took a second wife by commandment. Second - He indicated that most of the polygamy of the early LDS was adulterous because the multiple wives were sought out side of commandment.Thus this is how I understand marriage. A man and a woman are commanded to marry according to the law of G-d. In this a man may take to himself a woman of his choice. But an man is never to take another wife but it be commanded of G-d. Let me draw a parallel to the commandment “Thou shalt not Kill”. This means that man never has the right to decide to take someone’s life. That is according to the commandment. Yet we see a number of times that G-d commanded that someone be killed. This was not in violation of the commandment not to kill because it was not man that made the decision but G-d. If fact many scholars agree that the commandment should be better translated “Thou shalt not Murder.” Since the commandment to take a second wife can only come from the president and since he has commanded that there be no second wives taken in our day is not a contradiction or change in commandment. Because our society is not able to abide polygamy; G-d does not command it. But we must all realize that those that covenant with G-d are under obligation to do what G-d commands - even and especially if we may not like it at the time. The Traveler

I agree that all religions have a history of at least some violence. It is very sad but no religion is exempt from hypocrisy. Jesus and the apostles were involved in violence. However, just because there was violence does not mean that they caused it. It is a simple matter of who was violent against who or who drove out who. The same applies to hypocrisy. There was Judas among the apostles that was not on board the program - but it is different when the controllers, the force and the majority behind a movement is pursuing a program or publishing hypocrisy contrary to good principles of behavior. In short - good peoples will always find themselves at odds with evil. But good peoples should never find themselves as odds with other good peoples of different cultures or beliefs. Jesus taught this in the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were of a different culture and differed on points of doctrine from the Jews. Because of that there was much hatred and even violence between those groups. Jesus taught that such hatred based on culture and belief is “NOT CHRISTIAN”. If others cannot be both appreciated and allowed to live in peace based on culture or religion - then that person, society or religion is apostate to G-d’s will culture and religion. And I know of no better sign of apostasy. The Traveler

We hold to the concept that Apostles and the authroity of the Apostles are a most important part of the Kingdom that was anciently lost and have been restored to the kingdom (church) in our day. The Traveler

There was an apostasy from authority but there was apostasy from more than just the authority. Mostly we understand that authority was taken from the earth piece by piece as apostles died (or otherwise removed from the society of man) that were not replaced. But there were still others that had authority given to them by the apostles - since they did not have authority to pass priesthood offices on to others without the Apostles the structure and methods of the kingdom was doomed with the loss of the Apostles. However, the authority was not completly lost until the last priesthood holder ordained under the Apostles also died. This could take several years and today we have no idea who the last priesthood holder was - It might have been a man known as Moroni. The Traveler

First - Apostles are selected just as they were when Judas was replaced following the resurrection of Christ. The new Apostle is selected by the other apostles meeting as a quorum and making the selection. The first President of the Chruch (the prophet to the church and to the world) is selected by G-d as the longest standing Apostle or the presiding apostle. The Traveler

One thing I think of concerning Apostasy and restoration is that sometimes we cannot isolate all things to a specific time - Like Wednesday afternoon September 8, 0074 AD. the Apostasy began. We see the seeds of apostasy being planted even while Jesus was alive. Likewise the restoration did not all take place with Joseph Smith. There were many "reformers" during hundreds of years preparing and in the same manner there is yet much to be done to restore the kingdom of G-d and the return of Jesus as the king. With that said there are mile stones. Some of the milestones in history that I see of the Apostasy is the event of the destruction of the Library at Alexandria. This event destroyed the most accurate copies of the Old and New Testament scriptures and started the western world in the era known as the “Dark Ages”. Another milestone of Apostasy was Charlemagne and his purges of the pagans of northern Europe that brought more death than the Black Plague. I believe some of the milestones in the restoration was the first printing of an English translation of the Christian Bible along with the concept of the common people reading scriptures. I also believe the Freedom of Religion act of 1649 that outlawed death as a punishment for not believing the dominate religion (though it would be 200 years before this included non-Trinitarian religions) was a major milestone in Wester society. Some other milestones was the restoration of the Book of Mormon and the same and offices and authority of the Priesthoods held by the Apostles. Another is the dedication by a modern Apostle of the holy land for the return of Israel and the return of Jews to the middle east as a nation. Milestones I am looking for to yet happen is the sending of missionaries to the middle East and the building of a temple in Jerusalem. The Traveler

Once when traveling I met a man (LDS) that had not been to church in a very long time. I invited him to come with me the next Sunday. He said all he had to wear was a clean tee shirt and levies. I said that I would wear a tee shirt and levies as well - I hoped no one would say something because I had attended Church (as a visitor) a couple times in a suit. Every one treated us very well - there were not problems. No one can control what someone might say. Children have a tendency to say things in their innocence that may cause some embarrassment. I invite all that wish to - to come enjoy an LDS worship service. The Traveler

When I looked into the GO 'N JOY near Federal Way I found no evidence of any workers forced to volunteer or work extra long hours or anyone starving. The store was owned and in the name of the family and they were the primary workers at the store. I found no effort to pull vulnerable young people away from their families or to try to get children druggs. When I asked those accusing such things they could not provide names. I checked with the state of Washington and no formal charges were ever filed by anyone in association with the accusations against the Moonies. If anything was ever proven in court I would like to know of it. There was a lot of stuff passed out making claims about Moonies but I could not verify any of it. It is my opinion that Rev Moon is a bit of a nut case - but I have found nut cases even within my own LDS faith as well as many other places. The Traveler

Very interesting post Dr T. But I must ask - Do you know who Baal was? Do you know by what means Baal was worshiped in ancient Israel (what was considered worship)? It is interesting that many in ancient Israel thought they could "worship" Baal and the G-d of Israel as well. Do you know why? Perhaps if you understood these things you would understand not just the problem of ancient Israel but how Baal is being manifested and worshiped among us today? The Traveler

I do not understand - what did Jesus do to prevent anyone from worshiping? When did he encourage the abuse of children and the destruction of the livelihood of families that prayed to false g-ds but treated others honestly? As near as I can see his criticism was of those that treated others in a vile manner (without love and compassion) - example the good Samaritan. The Traveler

There is a gross misunderstanding about G-d. It is the love and grace of G-d and his willingness to sacrifice for our benefit that define the Glory of G-d. It is not advancing self to some great position of authority over others. The concept of equal to G-d is likewise misleading. It is not his power but his grace, it is not his authority but his love. Jesus said that the greatest in the Kingdom of G-d is the servant. When we try to measure G-d by man's standards we will not understand or be able to understand G-d or our own everlasting worth. We will better understand G-d as we learn to sacrifice for the benefit of others as he did. The best teacher and learning opportunity man has to understand G-d is to become a loving father or mother (parent and spouse) willing to sacrifice for the benefit of family. Those that put their personal desires and passions before family will never understand G-d. The Traveler

just a reminder that us LDS peoples are Christians, as we believe in Jesus Christ as the resurrected Son of God. Just a point here from my opinion - saying you believe in something (like Jesus Christ and the resurrection) - I do not believe that saying anything makes someone a Christian any more that sleeping in a garage and saying varumm, varumm putt putt will make someone a Chevy. :) The Traveler

A short story. About 25 years ago I lived at Brown Point in Washington. A follower of Rev. Moon moved into our area and opened a small convenience story in an attempt to make a living. They made no effort to hide their religious feelings and offered something of religious nature to every one that came to their small store. For some reason several “Christian” ministers became more than concerned with this man and his family and began denigrating both him, his family and his religion from their pulpits in their houses of worship. I will not go into the details because to me the details and the arguments over the details are meaningless - what is meaningful was the results. The children of the new member of the community were picked on (beaten up) at school. Their oldest child was 7. Because they were picked on by other children there was very little legal recourse. The parents and teachers had to guard the children at school and going to and from school. When the parents picked up their children, parents of other children would taunt them and demand they leave the community. It was quite vile but got worse. Soon bricks started being thrown through the windows of the home and business of the followers of Rev Moon and demonstrators marched up and down the street in front of the business caring signs accusing all kinds of things including child abuse in the store. All of the things the demonstrators learned from the pulpits of their churches. Because I made a point of going to the store and talking kindly with the owners and buying things, I started receiving threats on my phone and notes at my door of danger to my family. The sad thing is that the followers of Rev. Moon were forced out of business and finely left the area. Question - did those ministers, testify of Christ, contending for their faith, against the follower of Rev Moon? You all can make up your own mind. For me: what-ever reward I receive in what-ever next life there is - I would rather spend it with people like the followers of Rev. Moon than the followers of Christ from the various religions at Brown’s Point and Federal Way in the state of Washington. I am glad there are a few true Christians in that area and respond accordingly - but 25 years ago there were but few in that neighborhood. The Traveler

I will add a couple more points and perhaps later if I get some time add a story. Jesus said something rather interesting when he provided the notion that “his sheep hear his voice”. Indicating that both Jesus and his servants are known to the sheep. How is this? As Dr T added - how does this play with the “world view”. How is it that the sheep know the voice of the Shepard? The scriptures make a reference that those with eyes to see will see and those with ears to hear will hear. In the ancient concept of Kingdoms it was common that when someone was dis-loyal to the king the common punishment was to burn out their eyes and/or ears so that they could no longer hear or see. An example of this punishment was Sampson when his eyes were burned to cause blindness. This was done because Sampson was dis-loyal to those in power at the time. The concept of blindness and dis-loyalty also concerned the Apostles about a man blind from birth. As it turned out the man’s blindness had nothing to do with dis-loyalty to G-d but the Apostles were confused none the less. So we have a few points to consider in being able to hear the voice of the prophets that are servants of the L-rd: First: is to become an covenant subject (sheep) of the kingdom of G-d. The LDS view of this covenant is the covenant of Baptism. Note that Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees that those Jews that did not covenant in Baptism through John the Baptist did not hear or understand Jesus’s voice. Second: Remain loyal through a trial of faith. There is no loyalty with out a trail. Third: Prayer - both uttered and unexpressed. In other words Ask, Seek and Knock as investment for receiving the L-rd’s voice. The phrase “words from the mouth of G-d” is symbolic of hearing the revelations from a prophet - for a prophet is the mouth of G-d (as Moses was told by G-d). Not only does man have the words from the mouth of G-d from prophets that will from time to time walk among mankind but we also have the words from the mouth of G-d from prophets that have walked among man through previous generations. We call this the scriptures. I submit that all words spoken from the mouth of G-d through prophets should be considered as sacred scripture. The Traveler

I think Jesus said to pray (always) to avoid temptation. It seems to me that false spirits will "tempt" someone rather than inspire them. To be honest it appears to me that prayer is a worthy method of avoiding temptation by unclean spirits. That is we should pray not to be tempted and not pray to be tempted. I would also add that not all prayers are offered with words or conscious thoughts. Some prayers are offered through the desires of our hearts despite the words we utter. The Traveler

Lots of good replies - I suggest that there is an attempt to influenced us by unclean spirits when we are tempted. The first temptation is to satisfy self. The first rejection of temptation is to sacrifice self. The more we gratify self the more we lose control and become controlled and in bondage. The more we sacrifice self wants and desires the more we are free - A Buddhist thought. The Traveler

In general it appears to me the G-d calls men to be prophets that the world cannot see any reason for and have no intention of listing to. He just does not seem to respect the popular guys. For years I could not come up with a reason the the people of Nineveh listened to Jonah - until I read between the lines. What good is a prophet that tells you what you already know? If someone is not saying against the prophet - what is the likelihood that they are not really a prophet? I go by the concept that if you do not like what someone is saying then you better have something better to provide. Just talking someone down without providing something better says much more about the critic. The Traveler

I have not read all the posts but I would like to add that no one has to read everybody's posts. If someone is tired of what a certain poster is posting - then quit reading their posts. Something that I have found interesting about posts. If you say something intelligent and logical many other posters will look at it and think it was nice - but why comment the, first post says it all. However, if you post something really stupid or off the wall insane; almost everybody in the forum will respond and you will get a lot of attention. It is my theory that many poster types love attention more than they love saying something intelligent and logical - so we give incentive to such posters by giving them the attention they crave. There are no rules that anyone has to respond to anyone else. That said there some posters that I will go out of my way to read. Not because I agree with them but because they give incite from a different point of view - often when I think about their opinions from their point of view I realize that they have opinions worth considering. Snow and PC are a couple of good examples. The Traveler

It is interesting to me and perhaps a bit of human nature that most focus on the negative. There are many positives things that will occur. Since there are many positive things that exist in LDS scriptures - I will leave this as an exercise for the readers. In particular pay attention to the gatherings that will take place among the gentiles. The other thing I suggest we focus on is the separation of Babylon from a "remnant" of Zion. In ancient times the concept of remnant has significance associated with "salvation" or the salvage and separating that which is of value from the dross. It is the dross that is destroyed. There are some interesting scripture symbols concerning what is dross and labeled for destruction and what is labeled of value to be redeemed. How will the remnant be gathered? What will be the attractions (bate for the trap) of Babylon? How will G-d manifest his prophets as opposed to the false prophets of the anti-Christ. For helps I recommend the LDS institute student manuel "Old Testament" I Kings - Malachi. (see table of contents beginning with chapter 17) The Traveler

One thing interesting to me is that since the time that Jesus left there has been speculation when he would return. Usually it was thought to be soon and no longer than sometime during the next generation. I do not like to speculate and I am left to wonder, as we have observed history; why someone thinks there has been a change to warrent speculation that the time is currently closer than 20 to 50 years away? From what I uncerstand of the days of Noah, we still have quite a lot of things to happen both for the good and in the build up of evil. The Traveler

I think we are talking about the new person changed through ideas that now give them place not just within the universe but as a being that G-d has in the palm of his hand. I do not think the "what a wretched man am I" converts very many. I think it is more "what a wretched man was I" but the great healer has brought me to a new understanding and vision. I think it is the joy not the wretchedness that is the light of conversion that shines as a beacon to the world. When I travel I would rather stop for a night with those filled with joy. Someone else may seek out the wretched - but not me. The Traveler

I would say that newbies tend to keep things simple and speak with the spirit. I think it is the scholars that want to prove stuff with logic and scriptures. If religion does not allow a person to "feel" better about themselves and G-d, what value does it really bring. I think the concept that I am a better person for what I have learned give more hope than blowing anyone away with logic - that at the end of the day leaves you still wondering if G-d has really made a difference. The Traveler

A word of my own creation: Obstacle-illusion = Being overcome with the thought of the difficulty of a task. The Traveler

Have a good one. Thanks for your interest - I have thought about your story and I wonder. What happens when someone will not or cannot face their demons or just does not accept the possibility that there are demons to face? We may argue the points of what demons are or how we are affected by the vast variety of demons. We may think of demons as symbols or a type of "mental illness". But if we as individuals or a society cannot face our demons - What should or can we expect? The Traveler