Traveler

Is a mule an example of micro evolution or a beginning of macro evolution? As for your question. Evolution has more detail in how plants and animals are different than either traditional Creationism (coming out of the Dark Ages) or ID - the modern equilivent of Creationism that adds not a single detail to understanding the process.

When you use verses from the Bible, do you follow the Exegetical Meaning of that verse or do you bring your own interpretation to the verses? Son of Paul ← I believe scripture is not “THE” source of truth but a “means” of introducing truth. The truth of scripture is dimensional and hidden from the world. It can only be understood: First by study (seek and you shall find), second by covenant, third by trial and forth through manifestations of the spirit. When I say dimensional I mean at least two things: That is “type and shadow” where keys of past open future and vise versa (see Ecel 1:9-10) and second parallel or layered like an onion. Beyond one understanding is another or line upon line upon line upon line. Example Malachi 3:10. By study we learn of tithing. By covenant we make a plan and a promise to “prove G-d”. By trial we establish our tithing (during good times and difficult times). Then and only then can the manifestation of the spirit reveal the “windows of heaven” and blessing granted by G-d. Then as we continue to study, covenant, remain loyal in trial we continue to a new level of manifestation of G-d’s love pronouncing blessings and knowledge of tithing. Those that say they understand Malachi 3:10 but do not tithe cannot possibly be telling the truth regardless of how smart or cleaver they are concerning the words, text and structure of the scripture. The Traveler

No I don't - They are not used in scripture, they are not in my dictionary nor are they used in any religious setting with which I am familiar. The Traveler

Thank you for responding - It appears that you are the only "repentant Christian" that would consider making a comment. Mostly I agree with you post. If there is a difference in our opinions it is this. I believe that when the spirit of G-d is with a person they do not even have a desire to sin. In order to sin we must drive the spirit of G-d away. Once we have done that it is very difficult to get it back. The more use to sin we become the more difficult it is to repent (have a change of mind and heart) The Traveler

BTW - my little pocket English "Oxford American Dictionary" has the word "adieu" in it??? Who made this up to be a problem? The Traveler

Inactivex: I will leave you with a couple of Bible scriptures to think about concerning this manner. The first is Ecclesiastes 1:9-10. Now why should this also refer to scripture? Now read Genesis 41:25 not read verse 32 of that chapter. G-d repeats things for a reason – you ought to pay attention. The Traveler

SNOW If you truly have accepted the Lord as you say then why do you all still teach that His sacrifice on the cross is not enough for salvation. If He is able to die for all the sins of all the people who ever lived even before we were born then WHY ISN'T HE ABLE TO COMPLETE WHAT HE STARTED IN EACH OF THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED. Mormonism teaches that even after all the holding onto the rod and reaching the tree of life and eating its fruit people can still fall away (Lehi's dream). Which is saying that we have to work for our salvation and even after doing all that is required still falling away. I refer to Romans 4:19-22 and Philippians 1:6 where in the 1st passage it says od Abraham that he believed even in his old age and then Paul says in the 2nd passage that he was confidant that what God had started He was able to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. To me the Gospel of Grace glorifies the Almighty God where the Gospel of Works makes it something people can boast about (look what I have done) which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8-10 and many other scriptures. SO IF YOU ACCEPTED THE GOD OF ALL TRUTH HE WILL SHOW YOU TRUTH FROM ERROR. All of us need to be asking God to show us the "fine points of deception" and to reveal all the facets of truth about Him. The Holy Spirit will honor that prayer and gradually show you as He has shown me those areas in my life that I had as untruth or sin. Once He reveals these untruths He asks that we believe Him above the traditions and beliefs we have held for so long and He will set us free. I had to jettison many beliefs from the "church of my youth" and follow Him rather than tradition and untruth. You must allow Him to do the same for you and Mormonism. ← IF YOU ACCEPTED THE G-D OF ALL TRUTH HE WILL SHOW YOU TRUTH FROM ERROR - Wow, how can someone that accepts G-d - sin after G-d has shown him the truth from error? Since the time that "He has shown me those areas in my life that I had as untruth or sin" (Your words) - have you sined? Even just a little one where you got mad at someone that did not deserve it? If your current church and religion has set you and everyone else there stright (ended devorce among its menbers - ended pride and envy and everything else bad) please send me the location where you all are - I'll be there Sunday to check it out. The Traveler The Traveler

I believe there are two kinds of sins or levels of sin if you will. The first type of sin I call the stupid ignorant sin. This is the most common of sins and is the result of a lot of dumb things, including not paying attention. We just get all caught up in the excitement of the moment, try it you like it mentality, sometimes called the error of youth or boys will be boys or girls just want to have fun mentality. Usually, us low life sinners, really do not mean any harm. We are not looking for a way to get into Hell. Call it a oops or whatever you like; in scripture this is addressed in a most interesting manner along the lines – the times of ignorance G-d winked at but now commands everyone to repent. I concur with scripture – repent –repentance is not that hard (see thread - is being a Christian easy or hard?) That aside there is to my understanding a whole different level of sin but before I tell you what I think it is, you have to understand something else first. You have to understand the power of G-d in your life and how it can change you from a low-life sinner to something rather grand and wonderful. Someone filled with the spirit of G-d with full knowledge of his love, mercy, grace and compassion. Someone with the understanding, acceptance and knowledge of Jesus and his great sacrifice for our sins. Someone aware of Jesus’ agony at Gethsemane, his pain on the cross and his broken heart at his death. Our evangelical friends call this born again and I agree in part with that assessment. This then brings me to the different type or next level of sin. Someone that has knowledge of G-d’s love, mercy, grace and compassion; someone that realizes the great cost redeemed by Christ in paying for our sins; someone that knows what agony our sins cause G-d; someone who walks with their hand in G-d’s hand; someone that is surrounded in G-d’s spirit to guide their very step. Someone that with full knowledge and G-d beside them chooses in their heart to commit to go against G-d’s will in order to sin. This I call the sin of knowledge and light – a sin of intelligence as apposed to the sin of ignorance type. This is no oops like the lower level sin, this is not a sin of stupidity, it is not a just a sin against your fellow man – it is an open full knowledge deliberate sin against G-d and it is a sin against the holy spirit of G-d. Not very many can commit the second type of sin. I do not dare say any individual who I think can do a second level sin. But I am quite concerned with those Christians that claim they are eligible (prime candidates), then excuse their sins against G-d as non consequential nothing sins because they are saved and do not need to even consider repentance (change of heart towards G-d and/or their fellow man) from their choice to sin. Let me just say one thing – what ever your type of sin is, what ever occurred in your heart to allow you to sin and not care. You need to make a change of your heart and that change is called repentance – it is something you have control over and something you must do. If you do not repent your heart will remain unchanged and able to excuse sin. And if you can sin while holding on to G-d’s hand; something is more wrong than you may want to consider thinking about. Perhaps you should consider a “more excellent way”. And so I ask an old question again in a slightly different manner – is it easy to be a repentant Christian? The Traveler

Nicely said Traveler ← Thank you Snow - I think this goes in the record books for you and I seeing something in the same light :) The Traveler

Is being a Christian hard or is it easy? The Traveler

I could play the little game of my favorite scriptures are better than your favorite scriptures. But since Jesus had no better success playing this game with the Pharisees or with Satan (Luke chapter 4) and since Jesus, the Pharisees and Satan are a lot smarter and better with the scriptures than me, I see no point. You and I are both quite capable of reading scriptures and getting something quite different from them. If you really want and really think it will make a difference I will come with my truck load of scriptures and dump them on your ideas and you can continue to do the same with me. I will however drop one little, not so important, scripture – James 2:10. This is because James is going over the guilty of anything you are guilty of breaking the whole law thing. But since you already don’t believe it you can play the scripture switch game and continue on your merry way. What I don’t get about your post is the notion that G-d is only going to punish those that really do not know any better. This is not my idea of a just and merciful G-d and makes zero sense to me. The one’s that have the spirit making sure they know all the good stuff to do and the bad stuff not to do – it really does not matter for them because G-d just does not care if those types sin or not because they performed the special ritual and incantation and they are forever off the hook??? They know tons more than anyone else but G-d does not care because he is pleased beyond belief only with the said ritual and incantation thing and nothing else so they have a back door pass (only allowable pass) into heaven??? I think it is quite an accomplishment that this is the main point of creation and human experience that you have gleaned from the scriptures. However, this is about 180 degrees out of whack with my take of the scriptures – including, as an example, the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were not the saved-by-ritual-and-incantation group if ever there was one. Jesus would not even go to teach that bunch of slime-crud. The priest and Levite are supposed to be the privileged-if-there-is-a-selected-saved of G-d group. You can bet your soul on whatever ideas you want and you can quote whatever scripture you want to excuse it. As for me I plan on doing the Good Samaritan thing plus for every oops thing I plan on doing the lowly publican thing of begging for forgiveness every chance I get right up to when I have to make an account of my “works” before G-d. Good luck with your plan – if we get a chance, let’s get together after all the mortal dust settles, you let me know how it turns out for you and I’ll do the same about me for you. The Traveler

Normally I do not like to post this kind of stuff. I find it pointless. Sometimes I will engage a evangelical if I think it is possible to communicate but for most of my experience I believe their attitude to be negative and no desire to exchange ideas. This is not all their doing. I have become rather negative myself but the difference seems to be that I personally do not like the spirit of contention and therefore I do not seek out an argument. I would never go to an evangelical web site and explain what I dislike about them. However, this is an LDS site so I will assume that evangelicals visiting this web site ought to be expectant of a different point of view. Never-the-less I still do not desire a contentious discussion. If you are evangelical and wish to argue a point - knock your self out - but you will lose me and my respect. But then again from past experiences that never was an issue of concern. I state this for you knowledge now should I not respond to what you think is off the scale brilliant argument in your post. I will now address two subjects that I have found cannot be discussed. The first is the LDS theological doctrine of G-d. I will not go in to the entire genre, just the LDS concept that man was created to model G-d. Despite that the ancient Hebrew that describes man’s creation as meaning exactly that (modeling G-d). I really do not understand why evangelicals go so ballistic with this idea. Whenever this subject is addressed with evangelicals they become obsessed with G-d’s power. Of all that is G-d this is the only thing of G-dlyness they care about enough to discuss with LDS. It appears to me that they believe that G-d’s power is evil and any use of such power is evil. This is such a thing with them I am concerned that they may really believe G-d to be evil. Usually the argument presented to LDS is all about having our own worlds over which we will be G-d as if a world having a G-d over it is the ultimate evil. This approach is so immature and childish I am amazed it is so universally used by evangelicals. Again, when G-d created man the scriptures tell us that G-d intended that man have “dominion” over all other things in the world in which he was placed. I think evangelicals think dominion is a bad and evil thing, regardless how it is exercised and despite the fact that G-d commanded it. Since G-d is the ultimate example of how a dominion ought to be exercised - I see all evangelical arguments on this matter to be directed directly at G-d and what he has done. Else why do they criticize doing what G-d does in the manner that he does it. The Satan argument is so wrong because Satan desired G-d’s power in order to use the power in a different manner. I find it odd that evangelicals seem to think the only way to use such power is as Satan would - They do not seem to understand at all why G-d is different. This is such a no brainer to me I do not get their whacked out approach. The Second big deal is Salvation. The faith and works arguments. The LDS concept is not difficult but there are two issues and if the LDS are to be criticized both issues must be addressed. LDS believe that the atonement of Christ addressed both issues in the LDS understanding. The first issue is that Jesus paid for all sin. Evangelicals do not seem to catch this doctrine so let me state it as clearly as I can. LDS believe that the atonement of Christ is an infinite atonement and paid for all sins. G-d’s part is a done deal and finished but we must repent for the atonement to have effect on our hearts. The evangelical arguments on this matter convince me that they have no concept what the atonement or repentance is. As near as I can tell they think in “me” terms or “I” terms and they see the atonement strictly on selfish terms. They will see only their sins as being paid. Their belief in Christ is for a personal savior and they do not see or care about anything beyond that. Forgive others? Not a requirement they say, salvation cannot be earned. What I do not understand is how they think they can believe in Christ and believed that Christ suffered for sins and still believe that other’s sins are not part of the deal. They only believe Jesus paid for their personal sins and since other’s sins are not paid for they do not have to forgive. I think they are nuts. I cannot see how anyone can believe in the atonement of Christ and not know that they must forgive others because Christ paid for sin so we could be free of sin - not just the selfish our sins but free of other’s sins as well - We are not free of other’s sins until we forgive them. In essence repentance is forgiving yourself or your sins and other’s of their sins. But believing such a thing gets you labeled a non Christian and believing in a different Jesus. Don’t evangelicals have better fish to fry? The other issue in the atonement concerns blessings. LDS believe that because of the atonement of Christ man can again have relationship with G-d and receive G-d’s blessings. The notion is very complex so try to keep up. Atonement two parts - redemption of sins (1) and enabling of blessings (2). This is a very important concept. Jesus gave a sermon on the Mount and devoted a whole section to blessings. He clearly taught that there are eternal blessings for righteous, even and especially if righteous must suffer in the short term - blessings come in eternity. I think from the arguments of evangelicals that they are extremely selfish and want all blessings for themself and to no one else especially those that followed the counsel of Jesus concerning to whom blessing are given accordingly to Matt chapter 5. For what-ever reason evangelicals hate the idea that righteousness has eternal connections. I do not think they care one bit about justice or that G-d is merciful in forgiving sins because of the atonement of Christ but that G-d is also just in that he only blesses the righteous. Sins do not reap eternal blessings - I do not see why they hate this concept but they do and I think their goal is the make anyone’s life miserable for believing such a thing for as long as they have power to do so. I realize that not all evangelicals believe and argue these points but because of the tactics used by those that do pretending all kinds of things I have not yet figured how to tell the mean ones that will act friendly from the friendly ones that are friendly. When someone approaches the issues I have listed in the manner and means customary to the mean evangelicals I figure I don’t need any more experience and they are welcome to anyone that likes the way they address the matter. The Traveler

Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent. The Traveler ← His free gift of grace; and Confessing you are a sinner and that you now take His payment on the cross for your sins and making Him Lord and Savior. PERIOD THAT IS IT FOR IF YOU TRUELY BELIEVED IN YOUR HEART AND TRUELY CONFESSED WITH YOUR MOUTH YOU ARE SAVED. FOR HE LOOKS AT THE HEART AND KNOWS WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVED. After this He will help you, guide you and chastise you if necessary so as you become more like Him. I WILL BE BACK WITH MORE POSTS. ← I have no problem with confessing sin - nor do I see any problem in accepting the atonement of Christ. I have problem with those that teach that those that accept Christ have no obligation to live according to G-d command than those that have no access to the good news. What-ever excuse there is to sin - I am against it, specially if it comes from someone claiming to be born of the spirit. The holy spirit does not teach that sin is okay if you are saved. That G-d would save anyone that refuses to give away their sins is stupid. It does not matter if you have confessed Christ or have no idea of Christ - if you do not repent of every sin you will be held accountable. Those that repent will be forgiven. If you know of Christ but refuse to repent on just one single sin you will held guilty of all. The good news I extend to all is that through faith in Christ if you will but repent G-d will forgive you. If you do not repent you have no forgiveness. And my friends if you repent and put away your sins that you know them no more your life will become filled with good works that will shine before man and glorify G-d. Those that claim to know G-d and refuse to shine the light of his glory will realize that such thinking has eternal consequences - it is why the scriptures warn us - for our eternal benefit. The Traveler

Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent. The Traveler ← A QUICK POSTSCRIPT; TRAVELER I HAVE NOTICED THAT IN ALL YOUR POSTS YOU TYPE G-D AND NOT SPELL OUT GOD. WHY IS THAT? ← Two reasons: 1. To insure that I always remember that any reference to G-d should be guarded and treated as sacred. 2. In many parts of the world the only exposer some people have to Christian ideas is from the internet. In any Islamic country it is against the law to copy material where G-d is spelled out. So I have developed this habit as a service to them and others that are uncomfortable to the liberal use fostered in our society. As a side note: All ancient copies of scripture made similar modifications in reference to G-d. If we respect the ancients we must consider the possibility that something has been lost to our society about using G-d's name. But this is speculation on my part. It is not my place to criticize anyone else in this manner except that they indicate a lack of respect for G-d or others efforts to maintain sacredness in referencing G-d. Thanks for asking. The Traveler

Sin is no accident. Especially for those that know of Christ (believe in Christ) and prefer sin cannot expect salvation in heaven. Why should a heavenly eternity be forced on anyone the prefers something else? Why should a eternity of hell be forced on anyone that in their heart desires to be free from sin? I believe Roman will be rewarded for every good thing he does and called to account for every evil his heart lust for. As will Snow. I am quite sure that G-d is just. It is clear that G-d is only merciful to those that prefer to be merciful to others. I really do not think G-d will be merciful to those that desire to damn others for disagreing with them. Many Christians really do not appreciate mercy and being forgiven because they would not pass it on if their life depended on it - and it does. I really believe anyone that wants to be in heaven with G-d will be welcomed with open loving arms - even the periodical sons and daughters. It is always interesting to me that when ever there is talk of salvation and that some will betray Christ how quickly the fingers begin to point. We all would like to think it is Judas and we could most likely prove it by some scripture. Seldom do we hear someone in humility ask, "L-rd is it I?" The Traveler

Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent. The Traveler

This is the nuttest possible of all ideas. So we are to believe that being loving, kind and compassionant (as to the example of G-d and his Son) has no eternal worth, value or consiquence? That G-d hates a man that fosters love in his heart because of his belief in G-d and his own effort and desire for good things therefore G-d will not allow good effort in his kingdom? Nonsense - such thinking puts truth and justice upside down and would makes G-d as evil as Satan. If G-d is just he will love and reward every good deed. It is Satan that wants to punish and withhold blessings to those that do good things. I just do not understand - how can someone teach against the eternal power of doing good and say they love G-d? To imply that doing good has no eternal value is to teach G-d has no eternal value for G-d does indeed do good. And to claim there is no eternal reward for good is to hate justice. The Traveler

Most LDS are sensitive to religious organizations that print distortions concerning our doctrine and life style. Our founder and prophet was murdered by religious bigots encouraged by their Christian ministers. On several occasions Mormons were forced from their homes and forced to flee in harsh elements for their lives. 1/5 of our membership (mostly young mothers and infant children) suffered starvation and death by exposure in the first year trying to reach the Salt Lake Valley. Forced to leave in winter by Christians encouraged by their ministers. Just a few years ago an extended court battle was completed over such religious bigots shouting obscenities at newly wed couples on their wedding day at the Salt Lake Temple. In other words the religious bigots claimed to have more rights (freedom of speech) to disrupt sacred LDS events on our own property than we had to assemble in peace without having to listen to those that disagree with our faith. Again Christians and Christian ministers were at the center of this effort to disrupt our faith. These are not Satan worshipers, atheist or the G-dless but Christians – Go figure? Even on forums such as this it is astonishing how many posters claiming to be Christians trying to save us LDS, do so by distorting our doctrine in the same manner as the bigots that have sought to kill and ask only the questions concerning our faith that these hate groups provide and claim prove us not Christian. Coincidence or inspired by the same spirit? On the topic of who is saved: We have published the following for over 150 years. “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ that all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are first, faith in the L-rd Jesus Christ, Second, repentance, Third, baptism, by emersion for the remission of sins and forth the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe that people should share their beliefs in the same manner they expect G-d to treat them and to be honest I have no desire to learn anything from a person that distorts any faith, be it LDS, JW, or Islam or whatever. If someone is denouncing the LDS faith and has our beliefs wrong I have no faith what-so-ever that they have the spiritual strength to get anything right. If anyone is going to save us because our doctrine is wrong then I expect them to understand our doctrine from our point of view. Jesus warned of false teachers as being wolves that gather grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. Grapes do not grow on thorn bushes so I understand this to mean that if someone is to learn of Islam then they learn it from the Moslems, they learn of Catholics from the Catholics and they learn of LDS from the LDS. Some one teaching any faith that is not their own is not Christ’s but the very wolves he warned about.

Let me make this as simple as I can. Knowing of someone and knowing someone is not the same thing. Anyone can say they believe in Jesus the Christ. Anyone can say they have Faith in Christ, are borne of the spirit of G-d, that they have accepted Jesus as their personal savior and that they love Jesus. Even devils can make such claims. Unfounded claims to Jesus are of no value what-so-ever. Any claim on or about Jesus to be true must have as the very minimum requirement – The witness must be obedience to his doctrine, teachings, covenants, commandments, ordinances and example. Anyone that makes any claim concerning Jesus that is not obedient to his teachings, will not and cannot witness to the truth of Jesus or his teachings. Anyone can say anything they want about faith and works, anyone can quote all scriptures, you can even bring an angel and shake the very foundations of the earth but if you have not repented and are not obedient to Jesus, you are nothing to me and no better than the vilest of liars. If you are concerned about salvation for yourself or anyone else then repent and try the Words of Jesus by being obedient to his commandments. If you do this you will know the doctrine of yourself – you will know if you should have faith and works and teach the same to others. But if you are not obedient to his word and do not teach obedience to his word as being necessary for anything of eternal good – I have no use for your witness and I encourage others follow and try this example. The Traveler

You may have any opinion you wish but the concept that The Father is an individual that is not G-d is contrary to scripture. The scriptures clearly indicate that there is a G-d the Father and a G-d the Son. I have never found any scripture that validates you opinion that they are individuals that are not G-d of themself. Because of the Fall man is cut off from G-d the Father and must have a mediator. This mediator is the singular G-d for fallen man. The Traveler

I would share a thought concerning “Intelligent Design” and the opposition that its opponents have to Evolution. Previously I have implied that the basic constructs or notions in “Intelligent Design” are not needed. The scientific principles and notions that comprise evolution are quite compatible with the scripture teaching of the origin and creation of all things. In fact the concept of Intelligent Design as opposed to evolution even hurts most Christian concepts in the scientific arena. Paramount to understanding Biblical creation is the very essence of evolution. That is; that all things outlined in scripture informing us of G-d’s creation is not a single event but a process by which something that already exist is altered, changed or if you will “organized” but in the final analysis “created”. I would that a reader understand that there is a link that brings together all things involved in the works of G-d. Words and concepts such as “salvation”, “redemption” and “saved” all have roots of unity in understanding which are evolutionary as established through the great creation. Creation is its self evolution and evolution is the essence of creation. Let us consider carefully the beginning of scripture where we as man are introduced to the wonders and mysteries of G-d’s power of creation. Genesis 1: 1-4: 1: In the Beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of G-d moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And G-d said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And G-d saw the light, that it was good: and G-d divided the light from the darkness.” In these 4 short verses not only does G-d explain his creation but there is both purpose and destiny revealed. With this basic beginning stuff all the work and purpose of G-d has a basis and can be understood as the secretes of spiritual and physical evolution unfold. The astonishing thing to me as a scientist is not only do these verses envelop great spiritual enlightenment but there is basis for understanding really neat scientific stuff related to the cosmic “Big Bang” and particle physics as well as quantim mechanics. One of the most basic principles of creation that pervades nearly every religious construct is the idea of the creative cycle or circle. But where do we begin in explaining the cycle of creation? If we try to understand the contents of a black hole there are several scientific principles of physics that begin to unfold in rather interesting ways. The black hole stuff is all called “a singularity”. The best scientific description is that all this stuff is indistinguishable. There is no big verses small, matter verses energy, complex verses simple, there is no dimension (this concept of no dimension is hard to imagine because we think of everything in spacial context) and most important concept there is that the black hole stuff is not lightness and darkness. Everything that is in the black hole exist in singularity. How interesting that both the scriptures and science start out creation with singularity stuff that is void and without form. And what is the first thing to be done with this singularity stuff? Separate it. The light stuff from the dark stuff. A side note here for the mathematically advanced mind. Water is interesting stuff and can be shown to be a common denominator mass that has ratio to all other elements and compounds. I know of no other mass that has the same characteristic. If anyone is interested in this mathematical construct and I will try to get you a copy. But without an advance understanding of mathematics this will be quite difficult to comprehend. Back to the subject of light and the need to separate light from darkness. Note in verse 4 that G-d identifies light as good. This is paramount in the need to separate it. The Book of Mormon tells us that there is opposition in all things and in the case of light its opposite is darkness. The separation of light from darkness is the reason of creation. But it is also not a one step process. Indeed it is a chiasm. It is the mark of both the beginning and the end of the cycle of creation. As we move forward to the end of time right down to the final judgement we find the separation of light from darkness still taking place and coming to a conclusion, for even salvation is the continuation of the separation of light from darkness. Now back to the beginning of the cycle we find two interesting characters involved that play a critical and important role. The first I will mention is a character known in heaven as Lucifer. Interesting name and title for this individual for it means “one of light” or “Bringer of Light”. In a lie Lucifer claims to be responsible for light. On the other hand is a character that we now know as The Son of G-d or Jesus the Christ. He also claims to be responsible for light. He tells us he is the “way” the “truth” and the “light”. The separation of these two started at the very beginning of creation as pointed out in Genesis and finishes in Revelation. Interesting that these two books are the beginning and end of Biblical scriptures. Creation is intended to separate all that belong to Christ as the source of light and those that belong to Satan that is the source of darkness. This separation is a evolutionary process. Now the problem of traditional Christian thinking and Intelligent Design. In the beginning of creation man was created and was innocent with need of redemption. If this was the purpose of man’s creation and since man has fallen so that the purpose of redemptions is nothing more than to return man to a innocent state without sin and no more need of redemption - How intelligent is that design? As a scientist if I has engineered such a design I would as any one that paid for or bought my design would consider such a failure and hardly intelligent. That is, it takes something you already have - ruins it and then restores it. All at great risk and cost which in any sense of the definition is not intelligent. The Traveler

I appreciate your efforts to explain the Trinity but you seem to be ignoring (as do all Trinitarians) the questions and problems in the Trinity doctrine that have been around for 1700+ years. You might want to Google “Nestorian Christians”. The problem we learn from our friend Nestor is that if the “oneness” of G-d is interpreted from the language and structure of ancient scriptures, then the oneness applies to G-d in the singular sense regardless of the nomenclature, be it G-d, person, attribute, nature or whatever. This has always been the problem of Christians attempting to reconcile G-d The Father, G-d The Son and G-d the Holy Ghost to the singularity oneness of the scriptures. The issue of Nestorian Christians becomes apparent in the scripture that tells us Mary is the mother of our L-rd. But if G-d is eternal and existed in singularity before the birth of Jesus then Mary cannot be Mother of that singular G-d (or L-rd) with all his persons, attributes and natures which are singular not plural and eternal. Mary could only be the mother of that nature that was not L-rd but that too is a contradiction, meaning that the scriptures are flawed in recognizing Mary as the mother of our L-rd. Another problem of the Trinity, that is never answered, has to do with the fall of man and the need for a “Mediator” to save or redeem man. Since man is fallen and cast out from G-d the Father, there must be another that is a mediator to redeem man. If there is singularity between the Father and the mediator then there is no real fall and no need for another, that is not singular, to act as redeemer or Mediator. It would not matter if the singularity called itself Father or Son if man still had any access to the singularity of G-d then he did not fall and needs no redemption. Therefore if there was a fall there cannot be a singularity of G-d the Father and G-d the Mediator Son. The answer is quite simple and does not require any of the mum-bo-jum-bo of the Trinity. Prior to the fall of man there was in the eternal kingdom of heaven plural G-ds over which G-d the Father was king of all. The scriptures are happy to use G-ds in plural prior to the fall with such phrases as “Let us make man in our image.” The terminology is plural because G-dness at that point to man was plural. Any and all singularity of G-d comes to us following the fall of man, prior to which there is not singularity of G-d in scripture. After the fall of man, man was cut off from G-d the Father and king of heaven. In fact man was cut off from all of that heavenly kingdom including all of the G-ds there, with one singular exception. Until man could be reconciled through a Mediator there was and is only one G-d with any relationship or possible relationship to fallen man. That G-d is the very singular Jesus, G-d The Son. All singularity and oneness of G-d in scripture since the fall is because of the need for man for a singular Mediator G-d. G-d the Son is the singular and oneness of G-d for fallen man. The problem with the Trinity is that the Trinity doctrine extends the singular oneness of G-d the Son to include G-d the Father and G-d the Son in the singularity that the scriptures only intended be understood for G-d the Son. The oneness of the Father and Son is clearly intended to be a singularity of unity in the same manner of a husband and wife and not a singularity of individuality. And with the Trinity singularity of the Father and Son the fall of man becomes contradictions of heresy. Sorry but you are wrong, G-d is not a mystery to those who are borne of the spirit of G-d unto eternal life. For this is life eternal (borne of the spirit of G-d) to know G-d the eternal Father and Jesus Christ who is sent from the Father as the only singular G-d Redeemer Mediator. I am grateful that G-d has given us a prophet in these last days that is borne of his spirit to speak in his name and clarify this simple and important doctrine. Since it is clarity that is being sought on this account as to why LDS do not accept the Trinity. The Traveler

Faith X (0 Works) = Dead Faith Faith X (- Works) = Dead Faith Faith X (Works) = Faith in Christ Grace X Faith = Grace X Dead Faith Grace X Faith in Christ = Salvation

You missed the most important element of man's part. On the only part that man contributes. Faith - works = Dead Faith. Consider yourselves enlightend. heh The Traveler

Satan’s work and glory is to bring about the immorality and infernal life of man :) The Traveler