Ray

I don't have disdain for the canon. I just don't memorize information by chapter and verse. But you can search for that information without asking me about it. I know you can. Really, you can. I did inform you. I gave you information. You can check it against all other sources. And I, personallly, recommend that you just check with God about it. Why do you need to read the same info somewhere else? Yes, I know we are both right, in part, but as a whole, we do not agree. Or at least it seemed we didn't. Maybe now we are beginning to. Do you now agree with what I have been saying?

A wife keeps insisting that her husband go with her to Walmart, and he gets bored when he goes shopping, anywhere. He prefers to get in, get what they need, get out, and be done with it. But Mrs. (anonymous) just looooves to browse. Walmart just sent her a letter... (what would you do about this?) Dear Mrs. (anonymous), We appreciate your patronage at our store, but over the past six months your husband has been creating a disturbance. We have documented some incidents on our video surveillance equipment and I will list each incident below. We hope to resolve this in a hospitable manner. We can’t be responsible for allowing this to continue. 1. June 24: Set all the alarm clocks in Housewares to go off at 5-minute intervals. 2. July 8: Set all the alarm clocks in Housewares to go off at 5-minute intervals… again. 3. July 22: Walked up to an employee and told her in an authoritative tone, There is a 'Code 3' in Housewares. 4. Aug 5: Asked a clerk at the Service Desk to put a bag of M&M's on layaway. FYI, we still have those at our Service Desk. 5. Aug 19: Moved a 'CAUTION - WET FLOOR' sign to a carpeted area. 6. Sep 2: Set up a tent in the Camping department and told other shoppers he'd let them in if they each brought a pillow from the Bedding department. 7. Sep 16: When a clerk asked if she could help him, he began to cry and asked, 'Why can't you people just leave me alone?' 8. Sep 30: Walked up to a security camera… to use it as a mirror… and just stood there while picking his nose. 9. Oct 14: While handling guns in the Hunting department, asked the clerk if he knew where he could find the antidepressants. 10. Oct 28: Darted around the store, looking suspicious, while loudly humming the "Mission Impossible" theme. 11. Nov 11: From the Auto department, he put a funnel on his head and skipped around the store while acting like Tinman… you know, like in the Wizard of Oz. 12. Nov 25: Hid in a clothing rack and when people browse through, yelled "PICK ME!”… “PICK ME!… “PICK ME!”... and startled quite a few customers. 13. Dec 2: When an announcement came over the loud speaker, he dropped to the floor, assumed a fetal position, and yelled "NO! NO! It's those voices again!!!" 14. Dec 9: Went into a fitting room, shut the door, waited a while, and then yelled, "There is no toilet paper in here!"

No, I'm not making you sound stupid. I'm telling you what I think you are asking me to do, and I'm telling you what I think of your suggestion. What I was asking was that if I said the same thing, why not just get a testimony of what I said? Here's what went down, as I saw it, in summary:I said something concerning something I believe. You then asked me for another reference... concerning what I was talking about. I referred you to God, but that wasn't good enough. You wanted another quote from another person. And then I told you you could search for yourself... I'm not doing your homework for you. I didn't want to give you a reference from someone else who simply had said what I said. But then you suggested that if you had that other reference, you might then know if I was speaking the truth... as if that other referral would help you to know if what I was saying was true. Which is what I'm referring to... you want another reference... another reference to believe in... instead of thinking about what I told you I believe and then asking for an assurance from God... to help you know what is the truth. ... anyone other than God, I said. You shouldn't! ... unless God tells you I am speaking the truth. God could speak through you... as well as me... but not both of us... not now... we don't agree.And if you want to know who... between the two of us... is speaking the truth... if one of us is... ask God. I am repeatedly telling you what I believe.

While intentionally trying to keep this simple, and brief, I will try to share my understanding with you. If you do not agree with what I am about to say, then please know that this is what I believe, and that I also believe that you don't have to agree with me. I share what I know with other people I talk with, but you are not referring to what I know. You are referring to how I share what I know, and you're saying "Ask God" isn't good enough. When someone asks me how I know what I know, or where I got my evidence for what I'm saying, you think I should provide them with some evidence to show how I came to know what I know. ... evidence other than my own personal testimony from God... ... evidence from other people who say they have learned from God... ... evidence from other people who I agree with. Is that right? If so, then let me tell you why I don't do that. I don't believe what I believe because other people told me what they believe and I then chose to believe them... anyone other than God, I mean. And I don't believe other people even when they tell me that some other people have said what they said.... unless those other people are God, I mean. ... even if they believe God told them what they believe, either personally, or through some other people. I don't take anyone's word for anything... anyone other than God, I mean. That is not how I learn what is true... about anything. ... and I don't see how that helps others to know the truth. I always ask God if what anyone says is true... because that's the only way I know the truth. I do know God speaks and has spoken through people... and often my wife is one of them... but I also don't believe her just because she says so. ... I always ask God for His assurance on all things. I don't believe what anyone else tells me... anyone other than God, I mean. ... just as I don't expect others to believe me... unless God confirms to them what I told them. I think all of us should ask God for His assurance on all things, so that all of us can know what is true. But do I read books? Of course I do. I do know God does inspire people. And I know many books contain a lot of the truth... concerning things God does want us to know. But I don't believe anyone just because they have spoken, or written, or caused something to be written. ... I don't even believe anyone when they say what they say is what God inspired them to say. ... unless God tells me, personally, that He did. Why would I believe them just because they said so, or what other people have said? To me, that's a stupid reason to believe anything, and I don't see how that helps to know truth. When I read any writing I simply read what is written while trying to understand what I'm reading. And if I don't understand what someone has written, I ask them, or I ask God, to explain that. Why would I ask the person who wrote what I'm reading to share what another person has written? That is pretty much what happened when I shared what I believe and Crimson asked me for other evidence. Why would I quote someone else to explain what I wrote or what I was thinking while writing? ... I know I could have, but how would that help someone know if what I have said is the truth? Instead of someone asking me to quote someone else who said what I said, why don't they just ask God to confirm what I said? You seem to be criticizing me because I don't refer to other people... anyone other than God, I mean. Really, people. Just think, some more, and ask God if He will confirm what I said. And stop trying to convince me that I should do what you say. I don't do what anyone says... ... no matter how many times they keep trying to tell me I should do what they think I should do. ... unless God confirms to me that I should do what they said, by assuring me they are speaking for Him.

I noticed two recurring thoughts throughout your last post, Rosie. 1. How do we know what is true? 2. Who should we believe? My answer to point #1 is... through faith from God. My answer to point #2 is... nobody other than God. And yes, I know, God speaks, and has spoken, through others who are/were on this Earth, but I put my trust in God... and only God... to know what is true about anything. Okay? That's my main message. Everything else is just fluff. I will share what I know and how I learned what I know. You and others can go and do what you want. And btw, I also know we're not as far apart as you think. I'm simply focusing on what I believe is necessary.

Sounds like the same old story to me. Why on Earth would anyone accept the scriptures as a "standard" or "test" to know truth? Seriously... they're just words. So what if Moses said or wrote... so and so... So what if Isaiah said or wrote... so and so... So what if Nephi said or wrote... so and so... So what if Mormon said or wrote... so and so... So what if John said or wrote... so and so... So what if Paul said or wrote... so and so... So what if Joseph Smith said or wrote... so and so... So what if Gordon Bitner Hinckley said or wrote... so and so... So what if Jesus, a man from a town called Nazareth, said or wrote... so and so... All the words people write mean nothing at all... unless you know God did really inspire them. So what if what they wrote is in perfect agreement... how do you know what they wrote is the truth? If I tell other people what is written in the scriptures, why wouldn't they believe what I'm saying? Seriously, people. Think about it. If I tell other people what is written in the scriptures, why wouldn't they believe what I'm saying? Never at any time did I say you should not compare what I say or write to the scriptures. You can search the scriptures to your heart's content... but will that tell you what is really the truth? If you have a headache, then I suggest you do something that will help your headache to go away, but please don't jump on my case because you think what I'm saying is not what you think I should say. I have my beliefs, and you have your beliefs. I'm sharing what I believe God wants me to tell you. What good would it do to show you that what I write was or is written by other prophets? I personally believe it really wouldn't matter if you read the same words in the scriptures. The only reason that I can see why you would believe what is written in the scriptures is because your faith is in the scriptures... or in those particular men... instead of in God, or in your Faith in God... similar to how some people won't believe anything other people say or write unless they can see it is written in the Bible... and they believe it simply because it is written in the Bible... instead of knowing through the power of God. Okay? Those are my thoughts on this issue. I hope I have made my point clear. You don't have to believe that what I'm saying is true. You can believe what you want to believe. And btw, I know from personal experience that Advil does wonders for headaches. :)

You can see for yourself how well that worked... on Laman and Lemuel, I mean.And I'm not saying we should not talk about what we know is from God, when we're sharing what we know with other people. But if someone asks us how we know, or why we believe what we believe, I think we should say something like: God assured us instead of something like: Well, see, it says so, in plain words, right here... -------------------------------------------------------------- Will you get what I am saying this time, I wonder? ... will you agree with what I'm saying... I mean? Or will you continue to show that you seem to think it's really stupid to do what I think we should do? I haven't seen much support from you, so far.

If I was in charge of the Space Program, or finding the cure for AIDS, or the missionary program in the Church, I would ask the Lord what He wanted me to know, and do, and then use that as He wants me to use that. I'll try to get more specific. If I was in charge of the missionary program, I would try to teach the missionaries that they should be teaching what they know... and how they and other people can know how to know... that God taught them. And if they wanted to know why, I would say something like: because they... and we, and everybody else... should ask God. I would not try to teach them that they should memorize the standard works so they can show others what those books have written in them. Words are just words... with no power at all. The power comes from a testimony from God. If a person doesn't have that, they have nothing. I don't care what anyone says... if I don't know God inspired them. And to know that He did, I ask God. I will tell you what I know, and how I know it is true. And if you want me to tell you why, I will tell you. I know what I know by asking God to assure me, and when He gives His assurance... I know it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I could talk about Faith every day... all the time... and still some people wouldn't know what I'm saying. Or some people would think I've said everything... repeatedly... and still not really know what I'm saying. Oh, well. We have the power to believe what we want to believe.

Not really. I'm a paradigm pirate, I can change my statements of belief (creeds) at the drop of a hat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_piracy See. Told ya. Now I know more about who you really are. :) That's not who I am. Heh, of course it's not. It's just a tiny little bit about who you are. You're the total of what you are now, what you've ever been before, and all that you will be in the future. Not a sum total, necessarily. But you're who you are, who you were, and who you'll be. ... even if you disagree with me. But I'm not trying to classify you by the little bit that I know. By what you say, and do, you reveal yourself. :)

Not really. I'm a paradigm pirate, I can change my statements of belief (creeds) at the drop of a hat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_piracy See. Told ya. Now I know more about who you really are. :)

I can see that you are adding something to the word "creed" that I do not add... to me it is simply a word that refers to a statement of beliefs. From one perspective I can hear you... I don't care what you believe... I love... and will love.. you anyway. But it would also be nice if we could be "one"... or agree... on ideas... as God is one... as God is. Your creeds... or your statements of belief... simply tell me more about who you are. :)

Thank you for that clarification.I agree that my beliefs are not limited by a creed, but I still use creeds to express my beliefs. A creed, by definition, is a statement of beliefs, but no statement really limits my beliefs. And in fact, I’m reminded by Article of Faith #9… We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. And now I am reminded by Article of Faith #13… If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. … and neither of those really limits my beliefs. If you look at it that way, I guess. But that's not the way I look at it.My desire is to become "at one" with God, and I hope that is your desire to. If it is, our disagreements show that we are not "one"... with each other... as well as not "one" with God. Or in other words, I, personally, would rather see us agree, than not agree, on any and all good things. :)

You liked that, did you?I thought you would. I just hope you have learned enough to know that when you ask me for some evidence, I'm likely to come back with the idea that you (and everyone else) should go to God directly for your answers. ... instead of asking me why I believe what I believe... ... about anything... ... fill in the blank. I thought that by now you might know me enough to know I would come back with that kind of answer. It was you who asked me for evidence, remember. I was simply telling you what I believe. I might give you some other person's testimony on occasions, but don't count on that, or expect it, from me. *** Please file this away for future reference *** whereever it might help you remember ***

I don't see where Joseph Smith defined the word "creed". Would you quote it, or him, again for me, please? Thank you. :) I just caught this, btw. I didn't know you were funny, Tsuzuki. Yes you are... you're a very funny guy. :)

Are not the Articles of Faith a COJCLDS creed? Not as such, no. They are canon, and as such are binding on church doctrine, but they are not the same thing as a creed. Members aren't required to hinge their beliefs on them. They are more a reflection of what we already believe as a whole. However, I think they might fit Ray's definition of a creed. You'll have to ask him. Edit: And of course you can use anything as a creed, even things that weren't designed for it, but that is hardly universal. What are you thinking of when you use the word "creed"? If I missed it, please repeat what you said or direct me to it... ... if you'd care to let me know what you believe.

Are not the Articles of Faith a COJCLDS creed? Yes, I believe they are... based on what I'm referring to when I use the word "creed".

I think I like you better when you don't talk to me, Crimson. But alas, what can I do? Just do me a favor from now on, okay? Please don't speak to me any more about this issue. ... the issue of Faith, and how I (and I believe everyone) should learn truth directly from God. ... and please don't make any more snide remarks about me or my beliefs on this issue either. Thank you very much. I'd appreciate that. Heh, whatever. You guys must really, really like me. Huh? :)

I've read one of your blogs... and responded to it... Tsuzuki, but I don't recall where it is on the web. From memory, I think you were saying that no truth is always true. Would you care to elaborate on what you meant? ... perhaps in another thread on that subject? I'm open to learning about it, but it's not high on my list of things to devote a lot of my time to. ... at least not at this moment in time.

Me too... I believe I know what he meant. :)

I use the word “creed” to refer to a statement of belief, faith, dogma, or doctrine, and… if it bursts your bubble, I'm sorry, but… we (LDS) have many, many, many, many creeds. Of course, you can disagree, but that’s a non-issue… or at least it is so to me. You can think what you want… you can say what you want… your creeds simply don’t affect me… unless we’re both “one” in our creeds, of course, and then you will see what I see. :)

OR... keep doing what works until I succeed while knowing it will work for me.And if something ELSE works, fine, okay then... I'll just ADD that to what I know works for me. :) 68 pages... No thank you.I do know a little bit about what it really is, though, and at this point I'm not interested in reading more. Yes, or at least trying. Thanks for noticing. :)

Heh, so tough that I'd rather not try that... instead trying to keep the damage to a minimum. If I tried to eat "well" there'd be a whole lot of foods that I.. and my wife.. wouldn't eat. My wife is diabetic... and shouldn't have sugar... but there are times when we want to fudge a little.

Entirely acceptable to say something like that? Acceptable to who? Not me. I told you what I thought was acceptable, Crimson. And I'm not open to your suggestions on this issue. I do know what I believe and I do have some evidence for all the things that I know and believe. If you want other references, you can search for yourself. I'll simply tell you what I know and believe. And on the few occasions when I help with your research, please continue to keep searching for yourself. I'm sure that most prophets want you to learn from God, yourself. ... instead of simply believing what they have to tell you.

Yes. I mean, right. I mean, yes, creeds are simply beliefs.And the restored gospel isn't any "anti" message, but the "good news" of all truth... I do believe. :)

We (LDS) believe there is only one true God in existence and the one God exists as many persons. I like to use the analogy of Man to explain it. How many beings known as Man do you believe in? If another being was Man... just exactly like Man... would you say that that was a different being? If a being is like Man... and just exactly like Man... then that being is also Man... not another being. But, of course, as you know, I'm not talking about persons. There are many, many persons who are Man. And btw, when most people say "God" they are usually referring to our Father... ... although our Lord and the Holy Ghost are also God. Did He abandon it, or did His divinity simply become hidden and unmanifest while here on Earth? The latter is closer to LDS theology and scripture. Personally, I believe our Lord remained God when He came here to fulfil His Father's will. And I know many other LDS who, personally, believe this. Our Lord was, is, and will always be God.