Ray

What's trivial to some may be valuable to others... in this case, perhaps to those who sell foot wear.What is "trivia" to you, Doc? What do you think that means? I know what I think, but what do you think?

That makes sense, since you're doing just the opposite at the end as you did at the beginning. M. Uh, well, yeah, I knew that. :) Uh, I thought 20 - 10 = 10. Are you trying to infer that I'm wrong!?! Please say it nice if you are. You can think what you want, of course. :) Are you speaking from experience about that, Doc? Have you tried with it unattached before? Do you know if that is possible? Is your arm a prosthetic arm?

Can you come up with some analogies for: What the atonement actually is, how we get it, and how it works... while keeping it simple? I've tried to do that, and I think it can help others understand it. For example, I recently used this analogy... ... and imperfect (or incomplete) as it is, I believe it can help others understand it: Say: God gave you a billion dollars... ... or a line of credit on a billion dollars. God could keep giving you more, but that's really not the point I'm driving at now... it's a very generous gift. And you didn't have to do anything to receive it. God just gave it to you. It's yours. It has your name on it. But to receive that money from God, you have to go through God to get it... ... meaning you have to get God's authorization to use it, and keep using it, for what God wants you to do with it. If you walk away from God... forever... then you will never receive it. Right now, the money is waiting, and you have some more time to claim it. But if you wait too long, you won't get it. There's a deadline for receiving it. And only God knows how long God gave you. I can't speculate about that. But I can tell you I got mine, and that some people don't seem to be using theirs. If they are, then why aren't they buying what I know to be good? (I believe the questions are helpful to help you (or others) see what I'm thinking.)

I hope you're referring them to the elders... to learn more about the Church.It's "okay" to give your own perspective, of course... with the understanding that you are accountable for what you tell others... but you and any other person who is not appointed by the Lord to represent the Church, including members of the Church... do not officially represent the Church. I hope we have helped to teach you at least that much. :)

Sorry Ray, I saw it on the internet years ago with the punch line Outshined gave. Don't think you made it up. Heh, I know I didn't just make it up. I was asking (Outshined) what he would say if I told him I did? ... if he would still say he would know what he (the police officer) would say? You could answer too, though. And you did. Does everyone know now? And btw, do you know what I find funny? The fact that some don't understand what I'm saying. It used to bug me, but now I see it as something that is "funny" in life... in a good way. If it's important to you, and you're serious, then I'll help you understand me. But until then I'll continue to have "fun" with the power of words. :)

Some LDS inmates choose to join the Protestant chapel service. We also have BOM, the triple, and a few of the gospel instruction books. Several videos of conferences too. That's good to know. :) Me (Ray): You said your supervisor is LDS, right? Tommy (prisonchaplain): No, I'm almost positive he's not. Then please clear up that story for me. I know you said something like that before. From my memory, faulty though it may be, sometimes, I remember you saying something about how you first found this website while trying to learn more about LDS, since (one of your higher ups) was LDS, and you didn't know much about that... our (LDS) religion. Maybe he's on the board of directors, or something else like that, instead of being a "supervisor".

It goes on to talk about good works being profitable for man, which makes sense but not for gaining the grace of salvation. Or in other words, we didn't and can't and will never do anything to earn the grace of God.The grace was that God gave us the gift... the atonement. And the atonement applies, automatically. He already gave it to us. But if we walk away from it... turn away... we won't ever, ever receive it. Unless we turn (back) to Him and receive what is waiting for us. An analogy. Say God gave you a billion dollars. You didn't have to do anything to receive it. God just gave it to you. It's yours. God put it all in your name. But for you to receive that money, you have to go through God to get it. If you walk away from God... forever... then you'll never get it. Right now, the money is waiting. You still have some more time to claim it. But if you wait too long, you won't get it. There's a time limit on it. And only God knows how long God gave you. I can't speculate about that. But I can tell you I got mine, and that you don't seem to be using yours. If you are, then why aren't you buying what I know to be good? :)

Are you sure? Do you know the policeman? How do you know he'll say that? What if I told the story's not real, and I just made it up? :)

Did you know that if you take any number that has 2 or more digits and then: double it, and add 2, and subtract 2, and divide by two you will then come out with the number that you started with? Pretty neat, huh. :)

An interesting thought... Do you know any LDS that meet for worship where you are?... or some people who claim to be LDS and worship in prison with you? You said your supervisor is LDS, right? Are there others who are LDS you know there? Either volunteers, or incarcerated? I wouldn't be surprised, either way. Not all LDS are always faithful... either in the world or out of it.

Thank you for sharing that, dancergirl. I appreciate the thoughts you shared. But I appreciate this thought the most, because it caused me to think: I always listen, and pick up a few new thoughts, and feel edified after the Sacrament, but right now I can't tell you what I heard last week, or any other week. At least not as well as you did. And right now I can't even remember what I heard last Sunday... which was 3 days ago.From now on I'm going to try to remember well enough so I can tell others... just as well as you did... what people said and what I learned from each Sacrament meeting, and I'm going to try to keep remembering until the very next meeting. That is my goal now. :)

That brought to my mind something I had practically forgotten about... at the end of each "sermon" there is always (or almost always) an "invitation" and an "invitation hymn". I remember my Dad, and Granddad, doing that, now, and I think it's a "standard practice".We (LDS) don't do that, btw. And we don't pass a plate, either. Have you attended one of our services yet, Tommy? Yep. "Bible Study groups"... they call them. They're not expected to attend, but I'd say they are regularly encouraged. And btw, if you don't know, Tommy, nobody forces our accountability, but we do encourage that because we believe it does help strengthen us.

That's some good old-fashioned preaching, right there! Do you think I'm evangelical now... like maybe a closet evangelist? I thinking that maybe you are LDS.

Just a side thought to your side thought, Traveler... based upon what I know.The term "evangelical" or "evangelist", as understood by most people in the world today, refers to a member of any of many religions... or religious organizations... or sects, and there's a lot of diversity among them. I suppose any of them could make that opportunity, but most of them don't. And there is no "standard practice" to follow... other than to ask our Father in prayer. But they don't have temples, so what would they use recommends for?

Q: What does it mean to be "temple worthy?" A person receiving a "full" temple recommend is basically saying they feel ready to enter God's presence. You can also receive a partial recommend, for certain things... like baptism, or for a child to attend a sealing ordinance. Q: Who determines whether a member is (temple worthy)? The member and a representative of our Lord... who is there to help the member by asking questions to help the member determine whether or not their answers are considered appropriate for someone who is seeking to enter the presence of the Lord. The final word is with our Lord, of course, but He acts through representatives, so their word is considered "good enough"... unless He overrules them. Q: Once you are declared worthy, what does it take to remain worthy--or do you have to regain the worthiness before each visit? It is the member's responsibility to remain worthy to enter the temple after they receive their temple recommend. The member is also responsible for renewing their recommend, which expire after 2 years. We go through the same process for each recommend we receive. Q: Can a member not be temple worthy, but still be in good standing? Yes. A member who is in "good standing" is a member who is not restricted because of inappropriate activity as a member of the Church. A member who is "temple worthy" is a member who is worthy to enter the temple. A new member must wait for a full year before they can seek to receive their temple recommend, but they are still considered to be a member in "good standing". Q: Is there a correlation between being a "temple worthy Mormon" and being in a state of salvation-readiness? Yes. A person who is worthy to receive a temple recommend is, according to the word of the member and that member's bishopric, worthy to enter the presence of the Lord. In other words, they are ready, and only our Lord can say otherwise... and we believe our Lord is speaking through His representatives. Q: Any thoughts on the expectations of members vis a vis the Temple and this whole discussion of faith and works? My expectation is that faith and works will lead me into the presence of God. But not my faith and works... the faith and works God gives to me.

I knew that. :)

Well, that's one way to know, I guess. Did you know that I already knew that? I didn't say that I didn't know, I asked how I would know. A minister lives on a golf course. He wants to play golf. It's a beautiful day... it is also a Sunday. He calls one of his colleagues. He says he's not feeling too good. His colleague does his job for him. He goes to play golf. He plays really well. He makes a hole in one, for the first time. And then again. He's playing alone. He didn't see someone see him. Who's he going to tell? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Pope wants to go for a drive. The limo pulls up. He actually drives. He goes through a park. He's goes too fast. The Police pull him over. The officer gets out of his car. He then goes up and taps on the window. He sees it's the Pope. He can't see there's no passenger. What's he going to say?

Who would you be if your will was God's will... if your will and God's will were both "one"?I wasn't saying you would become the same person, Doc. You would still keep your own identity.

It's really just a matter of the words we choose to use to express all our thoughts and our feelings. I think we are in agreement on this issue, basically.. It IS only God who saves us. What "keeping the commandments" means, to use some other words, is "keeping God's will as our will". Does anyone believe we can choose to commit a sin and, without Repenting, be allowed in God's presence? That God allows us to do "whatever" we want to do... as long as we know what Jesus did? I don't think anyone is saying that. I think we're giving God the credit for what God is helping us do. It's not what I do that saves me at any time, aside from letting God work in my life. And whose works do I do when my will is God's will? They're God's works... they're not my works. It is not me.

Based on just that? How in the world should I know? Has Forrest done what he needed to do? It's not what he knows, but what he has done... including what he has done with his knowledge. And if I really know Forrest, like I really know Forrest, there's nothing really stupid he's done. "Stupid is as stupid does", you know, and he isn't stupid if he doesn't know something. And btw, I like most of his answers. :)

Just one little alteration, if I may: <strike>If</strike> When you have been truly touched by grace and faith you will have all the power you need to do all <strike>necessary</strike> God wants you to do for the unto's (righteousness and salvation). It is then up to you do to "all you can do"... and with God, you'll be doing good works.

What must I do to be saved? Or will I every be worthy? But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10) When we accept God's grace, we accept his righteousness, his mercy, his judgement, his love. When we have become new due to God's grace we also become worthy. Only through faith in God's power to save us do we become worthy. M. Amen.

Whether or not we: Love God... actually giving our love (back) to God in some way. Love our neighbor... actually loving the people all around us. Honor our parents. Visit widows... being kind to them. Visit orphans... being kind to them too. Deal justly with our neighbors... doing kind things for them. Feed the hungry... Cloth the naked... Provide shelter for the destitute... ... or give support to organizations that do. There are many, many, good things we can do with God's love and His help to help the others who live around us. Those are just a few off the top of my head.

Yes, but all good works are truly only God's works. Without God, we do nothing good.God is the good tree. We can be branches. When we bear some good fruit, it's all His.

Heh, that's your opinion, Doc. They were already "complicated". I didn't do that. That tweren't me. :)You try sharing your thoughts about how God saves us. Go on. I'll always listen. Can you help me? I am truly beyond your ability to help me. I know that's true, but is it sad? I don't thinnnkkk sooo. :)