InTheDoghouse

The answer lies in the Book of Numbers in the Old Testament. The Sons of Levi were being set apart as the "representatives" of the congregation to fulfill the requirement of the law of the first born. It is here that they are washed anointed and the congregation "lays their hands upon them" in a transference of authority as they move inside the tabernacle. They are now acting as proxy for the rest of the congregation. They are literally doing vicarious work for those who were unable to do it for themselves. Today we become the "Sons of Moses and of Aaron" by accepting these two priesthoods... the Aaronic to the end of the Melchizedek (Sec 84: 33-39) and move inside the temple to do vicarious work as well... the Sons of Levi are again indeed making an offering in righteousness!

Hi Elphaba, Your knowledge on the subject is very impressive, you have done your homework that is for sure. I was quoting the article you posted when I used the phrase "wartime hysteria" for that was the mentality of the people involved and played an integral part in the actual frenzy that took place. I always hate the fact that people refer to the Utah War as a war that was bloodless, because I feel that (IMHO only) Mountain Meadow is really a part of that war and should be counted as casualties suffered therein. As far as my information being used in the book, it will not be included. I do not have the necessary documentation to back up any of my story, but I am sure of the truthfulness of it. For this reason my ancestors name is also not on the plaque on the monument. I am fine with this, because I totally understand the need for more concrete evidence before one could be added. My personal story is probably too long to post so I will message you with it if you are interested. I am so excited for this new book. I was excited when the article was published in the Ensign last year. The publication of that article opened the door for discussion in church, something that 5 years ago when I taught seminary I was told was TABU to discuss. Immediately following that article we had a YSA fireside and I was asked to speak to the young adults on the subject. It was a wonderful evening and I do believe that everyone went away with many questions answered. This is a big step for our church, as the article you posted stated, showing "maturity and confidence to be able to come to terms with their past." I will keep a close watch out for this book!

Elphaba, Thanks for posting the link to the article on the book Massacre at Mountain Meadows. I believe your dates are correct, or near so at least. They have been working on this book for years, as I submitted some information to Richard Turley at least 5 years ago. I have had an interest in the Mountain Meadow Massacre, because of an ancestor who was killed there, and have read all that was previously written on the subject. I can't wait for the release of this book finally. I loved the point that the authors have noted about the time period that the massacre took place and the "wartime hysteria mentality". I hope this book explains that so that people may understand the situation that surrounded the people of the time. Again, thanks for the post and the link!

Although I feel that personal prayer is just that, our leaders have encouraged us to use specific prayer language when we address the Lord. Here is another great article from the 1993 May edition of the Ensign By Elder Dallin H. Oaks that explains this very point beautifully. The Language of Prayer I too believe that the Lord would love to hear from us in any way we pray, but when possible we should try and practice proper prayer language which we have been taught, if for nothing else to show obedience. To quote Elder Oaks, "I am sure that our Heavenly Father, who loves all of his children, hears and answers all prayers, however phrased. If he is offended in connection with prayers, it is likely to be by their absence, not their phraseology." The most recent instruction by our church leaders on this topic that I could find was in the New Era in 2006. However, they have loads of previous instruction and council that has not been updated with any different information, so I would assume that is still the position of the church.

Welcome to the site. I have been a member of it awhile but have been spending my on line efforts in other places. I am glad to have the time to participate a little more in this community as well. So from a "not so old Dog" a hearty welcome! lol I bet you will get tons of ideas for your calling....I can't wait to hear them.

I believe that when we receive a confirmation by the spirit that we have been called to serve by God himself, then it is our choice to do so with a consecrated effort or not. This is the literal "proof" that is required of us to show that the covenants we have entered into are a priority to us. Being consecrated to Him allows us to "bind the Lord" and make his promises sure... of running and not be weary and walking and not faint. I certainly have not mastered this concept by any means but as with all areas of my life, I hope to be perfected in it someday. That is what HOPE is to me.

I loved the book Rough Stone Rolling by Bushman. I read it a few years ago when I was teaching the Doctrine and Covenants in early morning seminary. I had previously read his other book, Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism, which was equally as good, so was looking forward with anticipation to his latter book. Some of my fellow teachers started reading it and were put off by the description of Joseph Smith Senior as being a financial failure, and how he might have viewed himself as such. I thought that Bushman was extremely fair in his research and the way he presented the known facts. As always, he concluded that he knew the church was true despite some controversial issues that may have been recorded. I liked this about his writing. Anyway... loved the book, would recommend it to all! I think it is a definitive work on the prophet Joseph Smith.

Heather, thanks for these links have just gone and joined the groups.

Sixpacktr Thank you for using one of the best standards for learning truth to any question, the scriptures, to solidify your point. I agree with you totally, and Joseph Smith totally. I guess you are in good company. Thanks.

WordFlood, I think that the electric will be awesome for use now, but please consider the manual for a back up. Electricity may be a scarce commodity in a time of need, a manual one will be a must. We have both, unfortunately we use neither, at the present, I am to lazy to grind my own wheat! lol

After attending the World Wide Leadership Training meeting last Saturday, I think we had all better post The Family: A Proclamation to the World somewhere that we can see it regularly. The meeting was completely about the value of family, and family values. I think that "the family" is going to be an even bigger topic for debate in the future than it is now. President Monson, again, reiterated the sanctity of the family, as the concluding speaker. He counseled and warned us to foster our familial relationships and protect the family at all costs. I think that Jason has just come up with a way that his family can study and use this great proclamation to their best benefit. Thank you for sharing it with us, so that we may also use it to benefit our families.

"Part of the debate is over who we are to pay our tithes and offerings to. I remember an old joke that went something like: Lord, I will throw my money up into the air and whatever you need you keep, and whatever you don't need, let it fall to the ground and I will keep. Similar to this bit of humor, when we decide the conditions of the law instead of the Lord and choose who we want to pay our tithes and offerings to, we are somewhat doing the same thing. One of the earliest recorded instances of tithes being offered is in the scriptures when Abraham paid tithes after his return from his conquest in battle while delivering Lot from his enemies. In Genesis 14:20 it explains what Abraham does next with his increase, And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. It is more interesting to note to who he paid the tithes to. In Genesis 14:18 we read, And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. He paid tithes to Melchizedek because he was the rightful priesthood holder being the priest of the "most high God", or in other words, one having authority to act in God's name. I think the matter of debate is not one of "if the Lord requires tithing" but more the matter of who is the rightful representative of the Lord, holding the office of High Priest for one to pay their tithing to. For me, that holder is the Bishop of my ward, the High Priest of the Aaronic Priesthood, and Melchizedek Priesthood holder of the most high God. Finally, God does not need our money for himself, but we need to learn to become obedient and learn to sacrifice for ourselves so that by "law" he can bless us with the futher light and knowledge that is required to come to truly KNOW Him. He as a loving Father is leaving that decision in our hands, and we must learn toopen our hands and give and make it as an offering in righteousness to know HIM." I just didn't know if this was even read. Sorry for the re-post.

I think that this is a very common concern when people first start reading the BofM. I have come to understand the principle of judging others from this incident. In Matthew 7:1-2 the Savior warns us about the law of judging when he says, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." In the course of the story in question, if you will recall, the brothers had several ideas about ways to gain the plates from Laban. The first plan they had was to cast lots and see who would simply go and ask for the plates, the lot fell on Laman, and this is what happened, " And we cast lots—who of us should go in unto the house of Laban. And it came to pass that the lot fell upon Laman; and Laman went in unto the house of Laban, and he talked with him as he sat in his house. And he desired of Laban the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, which contained the genealogy of my father. And behold, it came to pass that Laban was angry, and thrust him out from his presence; and he would not that he should have the records. Wherefore, he said unto him: Behold thou art a robber, and I will slay thee." It is here that Laban passes judgment on Laman, calling him a robber and then inflicting the punishment for a robber, as death. Thus with what measure he judged he will be judged. The next plan was to go to their father's house and get the "inheritance" that was left behind and take it to Laban and try to "purchase" the plates from him. When Laban see's the gold and precious stuff they bring to try and buy the plates he "lusts" after it, "And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property, and that it was exceedingly great, he did lust after it, insomuch that he thrust us out, and sent his servants to slay us, that he might obtain our property. 26 And it came to pass that we did flee before the servants of Laban, and we were obliged to leave behind our property, and it fell into the hands of Laban." Oh no, guess who is the actual robber in the story? Yep, you guessed it Laban. Now, remember the punishment Laban himself attaches to robbers, is death. When he passed judgment he cast his own fate. As Nephi catches Laban in a drunken state he is reluctant to slay him but the Lord commands it. He is simply enforcing a "law" that he had already set, " and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again". Hope this adds another insight to your study.

AutumnBreez and Pushka- Thank you for the warm welcome. I hope to be able to contribute to the conversations more this time.

My question is, did any of the "Early Christian Martyr's" try and defend themselves?

I believe that paying tithing to God is similar to the "Word of Wisdom", a principle with a promise. I think that the ultimate blessing we receive from paying tithing is simply being able to gain a testimony of the first law of heaven which is the law of obedience and sacrifice. All these wonderful stories of financial success are very faith promoting but there are many instances of people who pay a full and honest tithe and do not receive monetary gain in return. That is not the promise, the promise is: (Malachi 3:10) and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. When the "windows of heaven" open I feel that it is a more increased power to receive light, just as an open window lets in the sunlight. Obedience to the commandment of tithing or any commandment for that matter,allows one to "prove" the Lord to see if His word is sure. Understanding law helps: D&C 130 20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— 21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. Paying tithing allows one to call upon the blessing of added light and knowledge. The temple is, among other ways, one of those places we are permitted to go to receive that added light and knowledge, it is allowed because of the obedience to the laws that predicated it, one being tithing. Part of the debate is over who we are to pay our tithes and offerings to. I remember an old joke that went something like: Lord, I will throw my money up into the air and whatever you need you keep, and whatever you don't need, let it fall to the ground and I will keep. Similar to this bit of humor, when we decide the conditions of the law instead of the Lord and choose who we want to pay our tithes and offerings to, we are somewhat doing the same thing. One of the earliest recorded instances of tithes being offered is in the scriptures when Abraham paid tithes after his return from his conquest in battle while delivering Lot from his enemies. In Genesis 14:20 it explains what Abraham does next with his increase, And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. It is more interesting to note to who he paid the tithes to. In Genesis 14:18 we read, And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. He paid tithes to Melchizedek because he was the rightful priesthood holder being the priest of the "most high God", or in other words, one having authority to act in God's name. I think the matter of debate is not one of "if the Lord requires tithing" but more the matter of who is the rightful representative of the Lord, holding the office of High Priest for one to pay their tithing to. For me, that holder is the Bishop of my ward, the High Priest of the Aaronic Priesthood, and Melchizedek Priesthood holder of the most high God. Finally, God does not need our money for himself, but we need to learn to become obedient and learn to sacrifice for ourselves so that by "law" he can bless us with the futher light and knowledge that is required to come to truly KNOW Him. He as a loving Father is leaving that decision in our hands, and we must learn toopen our hands and give and make it as an offering in righteousness to know HIM.

Wanderer I have arrived a little late on the scene, but have read the previous posts and wish to add my testimony to what has been said. I too, although born in the church, became converted later in my life. All members at some point face the same fears that you are facing before they take that "leap of faith" and submit to the will of the Lord. I love that Indiana Jones movie, I believe it is "The Temple of Doom", where in he walks to the edge of the cliff and then is required to take a step before the path becomes visible. I truly believe that is the way the Lord works in our lives. He leads us to the point of knowing where we need to be, then requires action on our part before He reveals the "sureness" of the way. This action is the seed that Alma refers to when he asks us to "Experiment upon the word": 27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. 33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good. Faith really does require some action. I firmly believe that true testimony comes only after the trial of you faith. So my advice is to "Experiment on the Word."

Mailis- You go! That is awesome. I don't think you are a nutcase at all. You obviously were way ahead of your time. NateHowe- Thanks. I am pretty busy posting on the HUBPAGES but would like to spend more time over here also. It looks like a really different place than before. I still have to get used to it.

HiJolly- I am the mom. MorningStar- The Doghouse is my vacation house and I hope I never get out! But thanks for your concern. lol Willow- Yep, I know it sounds crazy, but I love them all. Sometimes more that 25, especially in the summer. Dr.T- Thank-you.

Hi All, Just wanted to take the time to introduce myself. I have just joined the Mormon Forums again,(I have posted before the merge as FRBHG, but not a lot.) I decided to join because I have a very persuasive friend who had the vision of on-line missionary work, even before the infamous Elder Ballard talk given at BYU Hawaii. (Yes, I even caved and got a FACEBOOK account after that!) She is a true GVR. I am not really techno savy, but I am trying. I love the gospel and love to talk about it whenever I can. Basically, I am a total "Mormon Nerd", I love to read the scriptures and do Family History all the time. These are my favorite hobbies. Now, just to balance out the "Nerd" side, I am involved in a singles branch and every Sunday I house about 25 YA's for dinner and social interaction, so I guess I am not as out of touch as you might think. I can't wait to have some fun discussing the gospel with all of you. Thanks for the chance.

Hi Everybody I just wanted to post to let you know that I have tried to do as GVR suggested. (As you all know, she can be very persuasive at times.) I have gone out of my comfort zone and started to do missionary work on line. My dear friend GVR has posted a HUB at a site called Hubpages.com, under the name of LdsNana. She is a wonderful missionary for the church and has given all sorts of wonderful information to many people who are not members of the church. This particular site does not have a lot of LDS representation, so she has set it afire with info about the church. It is not as scary as I thought it would be. Even if you don't create a HUB, go on over and add a comment to her HUB and bear testimony of what she has already posted. It is totally easy. Everybody on that site is very friendly, as I have found them to be very open minded and kind. So go for it. Here she is: LdsNana-AskMormon on HubPages