threepercent

classic example of how words are used in war. governments are of course the prime target of Satan. his entire platform in the war in heaven was "i will govern" and he still seeks to do so. but also: 1 We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society. government is a tool, so government can be of God, or it can represent Satans counterfeit. but of course if we draw attention to this we are evil? yes? no? and to make such a comment about our brothers and sisters who are gay is just vile. classic example of how words are used in war.

thats great! thanks. I often think of this and Korihor, and suspect that MOST of the time people do judge for themselves and it is plain, I think people KNOW in their hearts when things are wrong, and they for the most part just dont want to face it or admit it because to do so would require change. Kinda the walking around blind in the noon day sun thing.

its a bit off topic again, but: 1. War in heaven was fought using words. how are words used in war. lets look at a current war where words are the weapons. didnt think that was so difficult. 2. the resurrection and Atonement took place on earth. but there are things to help us understand, such as Abraham and Issac, and giving your life for another. and living and giving your life for another:

fer sure fer sure, but that isnt the end all either. we have been told that gangs also are a type of GR. but that aint the end all nither. but I think these are the ones easy to ID, and not the ones that: did obtain the sole management of the government or that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils because if this is a type and shadow, then they will: 1. obtain management of the government 2. the people will support them 3. even the righteous will BELIEVE in their works and 4. partake of their spoils. and that aint the ms13 or the vice lords or a terrorist group. <notice the period.

I thought we were trying to figgure out who they are today? if you think his list is strange and tortured, fine, but how about adding to the conversation instead of subtracting from it. where is your list of identifying characteristics? course we could just "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" because its not like the Book of Mormon is 'written for our day" or anything, and its not like it contains the testimony of two nations who were destroyed by them, or it contains warnings to us to be vigilant in keeping them from getting above us.

I do think they mostly preached them out of existence. First of all because it says so. I dont think that was a little opps to throw us off track. I also think they hunted them down and killed them. When Alma was Chief Judge and also the Prophet, he could have used law to attempt to crush the robbers, instead he LEFT the judgment seat and focused on educating the people. I dont think he chose poorly. I think today if we had an educated people and they knew who the robbers were, that would quickly solve the problem. but thats back to the other thread.

well, I didnt bring it up to hijack my thread, I brought it up because it brings up interesting methodology. the "subject" could be anything, but it LEADS to my question, and obvioulsy shows right off, how easy that separation can and does take place. It is these "sensitive" issues that are exactly what I suspect will be some of the issues that are indicative of "depart from me, I never knew you" and we HAVE to be able to talk about politics. that IS the continuing war in heaven, where you stand on ISSUES. but just because we talk about politics does not mean we have to talk about parties or platforms or persons. when it comes to politics, if we are searching for truth, should talk about principle or law, and let each person figure out for themselves who best represents the principle they embrace. I am interested in peoples opinion on the subject of the thread. I know by the nature of the subject its hard to stay on target. but use the force luke, stay on target! I think there are people who really think they are doing good and are doing evil. they do "call evil good and good evil" in the last days right? we are in the last days right? didnt whats his face tell Moroni that he "knew" that the gadiation robbers were "good" ? how do we KNOW we will be on the right side? I mean, its important. thanks.

AND... thinking about the "virgins" representing the church and thinking that half will be told "I don't know you" or in the JST "you don't know Me" So when I look around the ward, and of course this site, and others, I cant help but wonder, because i really see division of thoughts, and of course both sides think the other side is ignorant. So how do we know what side we are on? I mean, like A-Train said, these people thought to some extent they were on the right side SO half the people you sit with each sabbath day think your the foolish half, and you think its them.... I also think that ignorance of the law will not be a applicable defense here, because the law is available to the church.

I think this is a good summary. what got me thinking of this was this article: M E R I D I A N M A G A Z I N E Wonder What the War in Heaven Was Like? Watch California This Fall By Gary Lawrence “There was a war in heaven,“ my dad said as he taught me about our pre-earthly existence and the purpose of life. It had only been a few years since he had returned from service as a Marine in World War II, so it was natural that his 10-year-old son immediately imagined a great battle with planes, tanks, and bazookas. What a war it must have been, I thought. How disappointed I was when he told me the implements of that special conflict were … words. Words? How exciting could that have been? I liked my version better. But I soon grasped the importance of this hinge event in our existence and the “weapons” we used to defend the principle of agency and God's plan for the happiness of His children. And I grew to understand that this war has not ended, that only the battlefield has changed. That battlefield is now California and the parallels between that pre-mortal conflict and the battle over the definition of marriage are striking. The scriptures tell us the beginning (“Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man” 1) and the end of the heavenly phase of that war (“he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” 2), but they do not reveal the details of the conflict itself. We can deduce, however, that Lucifer and his followers must have used very effective arguments to turn a third of the hosts of heaven away from the Father despite pure knowledge of God's will. From 35 years of studying arguments in political campaigns, and a bit of reverse engineering, here is my stab at what these arguments might have been. Argument 1: Equality. Lucifer sets the foundation by appealing to fairness and the equal worth of every spirit child. We are all children of the Father. It's only fair that all of us be together forever and enjoy the same things the Father has. Argument 2: Sympathy. Having set the logic, Lucifer turns to emotion. Under the Father's plan, some of your friends will never return. Look at Brother Jones here, or Sister Smith over there. How are you going to feel when you find out that people such as they — good, deserving people — may not make it back? Argument 3: Hate. After playing on the victim angle, Lucifer gradually steers emotions to the negative. Knowing that rebellion against righteousness can never be sustained without hate, he sows doubt about the Father Himself and leads the gullible step by step to that absolutely necessary ingredient if he is to win. Father doesn't really love you as much as you think He does. He has already prepared three kingdoms for us — a first-class kingdom, a second-class kingdom, and a third-class kingdom. None of us should be second-class citizens. This is unfair. This is discrimination. This is bigotry. This is hatred. … And it's okay to hate in return. Argument 4: Change. Now Lucifer returns to logic. The old ways have not worked. On the worlds without number the Father has created, too many were left behind and never returned to the Father's presence. It's time to do things differently. It's time for change. Argument 5: Guarantee. Amid the arguments about the consequences of each choice, Lucifer administers his clincher. Follow me and do what I say and I will guarantee that we will all return and live in celestial glory. And when I have the glory and power of the Father, I will make you my leaders and we will rule over those who did not follow us. It's the familiar guarantee of happiness and power that every tyrant in history has promised his followers. If he had been asked the details of his plan, Lucifer never would have admitted that he did not know how to create physical bodies for his followers to inhabit, and would not have revealed his plan to take over the bodies the Father would create. Lucifer would have couched his guarantee in amorphous language that appealed to those looking for an easier way without work. He's not called the father of lies for nothing. Now turn to the present battle. Whereas the principle under fire in the war in heaven was agency — the right to choose — the target in 2008 in California is marriage, both a principle and an institution. Just as agency is essential to our progress and happiness, so is marriage “central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.” 3And the arguments of those supporting same-sex marriage are eerily familiar: Equality. Together with its ally fairness, equality of outcome will always be the beginning point for those opposed to any part of God's plan. Gays and lesbians are people, too. They have the same emotions as anyone else. It is only fair that they be given equal rights. They should not be second-class citizens. Sympathy. Emotion is evoked by specific situations, in this case having two women in their 80s be the first same-sex marriage in California. Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin have the same loving and caring feelings for each other that any man and wife in a traditional marriage experience, and have been true to those feelings for five decades. Why can't society allow them a simple measure of happiness? Hate. The opposition must be shamed, vilified, and demonized. These descriptors of defenders of traditional marriage can already be found in anti-Prop 8 literature and blogs, and the list will grow: Christian extremists, anti-gay, right-wing radicals, old-fashioned, hung-up, homophobes, bigots, stupid, intolerant, mean-spirited, knuckle-draggers. Change. With emotions high and the opposition villainized, a bow to fairness makes the proposed solution look reasonable. It's time to change, to break free of oppression. There are many types of families, and marriage should be broadened to include all of them. It's only fair, and if it will make them happy, why not? Guarantee. This time the guarantee is not what someone will get, but a reassurance of what will not change. Same-sex marriage will not harm anyone. Heterosexual marriage will not be hurt. Nothing will change except all people will have every right that anyone else has. In short, if the arguments used in the war in heaven were persuasive enough to draw billions of God's spirit children away from Him, why should we not expect them to be used on the present battlefield? The same minions cast out from the Father's presence still remember what worked up there. The stakes are critical. If same-sex marriage advocates can dilute and hollow out the central part of the Creator's plan, the whole structure collapses — the family, the nation, and in time civilization itself. The time has come for those of us who believe that God, not man, created marriage (fortunately still a majority) to take a stand and defend it. Proposition 8 is a defining moment, a tipping point, a critical battle in our existence, melodramatic as that might sound. This is not a political sideshow. Long after the world only vaguely remembers a President McCain or a President Obama, people will continue to be affected by what happened in the California battle to protect marriage in the fall of 2008. Notes 1 Moses 4:3 2 Revelation 12:9 3 The Family: A Proclamation to the World

that they were going to be kicked out? how about the 5 foolish virgins, do you think they knew they were going to miss the Bridegroom? Because I suspect they thought they were all ok, and I also suspect they thought they were on the right side of things. I really doubt they thought they were evil. I also wonder if they thought WE were evil, I mean after all, under the plan WE selected, some people are sure going to everlasting destruction. I can see how they would think we were heartless.

twice! in a funny way, thats so true.

in a funny way, thats so true.

Welcome to the Rally for the Republic and the Revolution. It's not much of an overstatement to say that everyone attending this Rally for the Republic knows that the American Republic hangs by a thread, and a thin one at that. Every day the financial, political and foreign policy news verifies the crisis we face. The financial system teeters on collapse, our personal liberties continue to melt away, and the constant threat from foreign adversaries escalates daily. Yet, there's something exciting in the air. A revolutionary spirit has erupted and it will not be suppressed. We are indeed involved in an historic event. this rings a bell. although the bell may have a crack in it, and it may quote the bible.

how in the world do you take these statements as justification for socialism? how do you instigate socialism without theft? HOW? tell me how do you retain property rights under socialism?

Section 8 - Powers of Congress The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; lets start by quoting the entire clause, emphasis added on the part you left out. now lets jump to the 10 planks of the Communist manifesto. 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. (thrown in here to show where "fair share" comes from) in other words, all taxes must be uniform and so must any redistribution to be constitutional. specific welfare (such as farm subsidies) are not enumerated and as such are not authorized.

well, as over half of your post was just an attack on ETB, lets just leave him out of this then, except for statements he made as the Prophet. it seems the point needs to be driven further that Capitalism is not established in the Constitution. Capitalism can function under the Constitution, as can the United Order, but socialism and Communism cannot. Capitalism, or more correctly, central banking, has created the plutocracy you speak of, but it has also created an unparalleled standard of living for those who are enslaved by it, while still funding communism and socialism. your post basically consisted of three parts 1. twisting the text of the Constitution 2. attacking capitalism as if anyone was defending it. 3. attacking ETB as a right wing nutbar. again, for now lets drop ETB as being just a silly nut who had to be sent to an re-education camp over the big water. lets agree that as of 1910-13ish that capitalism has been as central to the promotion of Satan's plan as the rest of us wing nuts think socialism and Communism have been. lets address just one subject for a moment and that is socialism and the Constitution. do you agree that Christ has claimed authorship of the Constitution?

Rize, where did you go? are you going to answer my question?

BTW, just because socialism is not the answer doesn't mean I am pro-capitalist. Anyone who is awake to our awful situation knows that capitalism has funded both the fraud of socialism and the force of communism.

me too, in fact I am stunned that people seem to disregard key tenets of our religion. let me expound. D&C 101: ..I established the Constitution of this land.... (note this is Christ speaking. ) Article 4 Section 4 - Republican government (of the Constitution) The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government. note here that a Republic is quite different from a Social Democracy. Democracy is mob rules. Christ specifically did not set up a democracy. at this point it may help to watch this: Philosophy of liberty ah, firehouses, roads and education! Brigham Young taught: Regarding forced charity through taxation, President Benson said: Shedding more light on this he says: President Boyd K. Packer was also very specific on this point. He said, emphasis added.but of course the Constitution was established so that ..every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment..... what was it that the Prophet said? Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States! the Constitution is the antithesis of a social democracy. in a social democracy the state owns (insert favorite noun here). in the church we believe in property rights: D&C 134 2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life. how do you establish socialism without theft? Ezra Taft Benson in his treatise on the Proper Role of Government states also What Is Wrong With A "Little" Socialism? and whew, this is SO VAGUE, what are we to do? why don't the prophets just come right out and tell us in plain a precious language like: "Our real enemies," said President [J. Reuben] Clark, "are communism and its running mate, socialism. . . ." ". . . Its purpose is to destroy the Constitution and our Constitutional government." ("Righteousness Exalteth a Nation" 516-17; also in TL 109-10) President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends towards socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution. (see Conference Report, Apr 1963, pp. 112-13.) Have we read the Federalist papers? Are we reading the Constitution and pondering it? Are we aware of its principles? Are we abiding by these principles and teaching them to others? Could we defend the Constitution? Can we recognize when a law is constitutionally unsound? Do we know what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it? . . . Journal of Discourses, Volume 9, p. 340. john taylor: "As we have progressed the mist has been removed, and in relation to these matters, the Elders of Israel begin to understand that they have something to do with the world politically as well as religiously, that it is as much their duty to study correct political principles as well as religious, and to seek to know and comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests of the world." "As important as are all other principles of the gospel, it was the freedom issue which determined whether you received a body. To have been on the wrong side of the freedom issue during the war in heaven meant eternal damnation. How then can Latter-day Saints expect to be on the wrong side in this life and escape the eternal consequences?" (April , 1965, General Conference) … We pray thee that thou wilt inspire good and just men everywhere to be willing to sacrifice for, support, and uphold the Constitution and the government set up under it and thereby preserve for man his agency.(Dedicatory Prayer, Idaho Falls Temple) We thank Thee that thou didst inspire the noble men who wrote the Constitution of our beloved country, and we beseech Thee that the principles of that inspired document may ever be maintained - (Hawaiian Temple Dedicatory Prayer November 1919) Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever (Dedicatory Prayer, Kirkland Temple) . . [We] commend and encourage every person and every group who is sincerely seeking to study Constitutional principles and awaken a sleeping and apathetic people to the alarming conditions that are rapidly advancing about us. ("Statement Concerning the Position of the Church on Communism" ) how do you reconcile your support of socialism with these statements?