How is God our Father?

[Guest tomk]

tomk...There is nothing wrong with any of these threads, that can't be cured by a great big Bear Lake Raspberry Shake......

Agreed.

[Tough Grits]

Please forgive me if somebody has already quoted or referenced this article...I apologize that that the words are in bold, but I could not get the text to be un-bold. Sorry!

Robert J. Woodford, “‘In the Beginning’: A Latter-day Perspective,” Ensign, Jan 1998, 12

Pre-earth Existence

The story of creation did not begin with the formation of this earth. It extends back into what we call the pre-earth, or premortal, existence. Our understanding of the events in Genesis 1–3 is not complete if we ignore what went on before.

“This doctrine of premortal life was known to ancient Christians. For nearly five hundred years the doctrine was taught, but it was then rejected as a heresy by a clergy that had slipped into the Dark Ages of apostasy,” President Packer has taught.

“Once they rejected this doctrine, the doctrine of premortal life, and the doctrine of redemption for the dead, they could never unravel the mystery of life. They became like a man trying to assemble a strand of pearls on a string that was too short. There is no way they can put them all together. …

“There is no way to make sense out of life without a knowledge of the doctrine of premortal life.

“The idea that mortal birth is the beginning is preposterous. There is no way to explain life if you believe that.

“The notion that life ends with mortal death is ridiculous. There is no way to face life if you believe that.

“When we understand the doctrine of premortal life, then things fit together and make sense.” 6

We know from latter-day revelation that our existence did not begin with our birth on this earth and that we are eternal beings (see D&C 93:29). 7 We are the sons and daughters of God the Father—his spirit children (see Heb. 12:9; D&C 76:24). We also know that there were opportunities in the pre-earth existence for us to learn and grow and that we had our moral agency to choose (see Alma 13:3).

Additionally, we know that gender did not begin at birth; it existed in the pre-earth life. 8 In the document “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” we read: “All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.” 9

We know that there was a council of the Gods in which the plan of our Eternal Father was sustained. 10 This plan included the Creation of the earth on which we now dwell (see Abr. 3:24). The plan provided that while here we would be tested according to the commandments God would give us, and we would have moral agency to choose (Moses 6:33; Moses 7:33). This plan presupposed that Adam and Eve would fall from the Garden of Eden, so it provided for the Savior (see Alma 34:9–10, 14–15), a mediator who would provide the means whereby we could succeed in this earth-life experience and return to our Father in Heaven prepared for the next phase of our development (see Alma 12:24).

A “grand council” was held. There God the Father’s spirit children were taught the plan. The firstborn of our Father’s children was chosen as the Savior and Redeemer (see Abr. 3:27). 11 Those who did not sustain that choice rebelled (see Abr. 3:28). They did not keep their first estate, were cast out of heaven, and became Satan and his angels (see Rev. 12:7–9; Moses 4:3–4; D&C 29:36; D&C 76:28).

The plan called for those who kept their first estate to come to this earth (the second estate), receive a mortal body, and be tested to see if they would obey the Father in everything (see Abr. 3:25–26). The time and “the bounds of [our] habitation” were predetermined (Acts 17:26), and some were even foreordained to callings on this earth (see Abr. 3:23; Alma 13:3–9).

The Creation

The six basic questions often asked about the Creation are when, how, where, what, why, and who. The first three of these—when, how, and where—are left obscure by the Lord in all the accounts we have of the Creation. He gave us only this point of reference concerning when the Creation took place: “in the beginning” (Gen. 1:1). We look with genuine interest at the work of persons who attempt to determine the age of the earth, but the answer may escape us all until the Savior reveals all things concerning this earth after the Second Coming (see D&C 101:32–34). In describing how the Creation was accomplished, he told us that he spoke and it was done (see, for example, Moses 2:3, 5–6, 9). As to where the Creation took place, we only have statements by early leaders that it was in the presence of God. 12

The overall answer to the last three questions—who, what, why—is that our Father in Heaven created all things for his own eternal purposes (see 2 Ne. 2:14–15). We know from both latter-day revelation and the Bible that God did not act alone. Speaking to Moses, he said: “And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33).

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “It is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were also others who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith, and those who were appointed to be rulers before the earth was formed? We know that Jesus our Savior was a Spirit when this great work was done. He did all of these mighty works before he tabernacled in the flesh” 13 (see also Abr. 3:23–24).

Further, latter-day prophets inform us that God did not create the earth out of nothing, as is supposed by much of traditional Christianity today. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter” (D&C 131:7; see also D&C 93:33). Elder Orson Pratt of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles commented: “The materials out of which this earth was formed, are just as eternal as the materials of the glorious personage of the Lord himself. … This being, when he formed the earth, did not form it out of something that had no existence, but he formed it out of materials that had an existence from all eternity: they never had a beginning, neither will one particle of substance now in existence ever have an end. There are just as many particles now as there were at any previous period of duration, and will be while eternity lasts. Substance had no beginning; … the earth was formed out of eternal materials, and it was made to be inhabited and God peopled it with creatures of his own formation.” 14

This truth has also been discovered by scientists today who say that matter cannot be created or destroyed—only its form may be changed.

The story of the Creation is told twice in Genesis 1 and 2 but with a difference in the order of events. The reason for these two accounts is clearer in light of Moses 3:5: “For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air.”

Genesis 1 evidently teaches us about the preparation of the earth for humankind to inhabit and about the creation in heaven of the original plants, animals, and humans—Adam and Eve. Their bodies were physical but not yet subject to death. Genesis 2 evidently teaches us about the placing of these original plants, animals, and humans on the earth in their immortal state.

From the existing scriptural accounts we have, it is true that we cannot glean definitive answers to every question about the Creation. As a result, it is evident that the Lord did not intend the opening chapters of Genesis or other scriptures about the Creation to be textbook sections on geology, archeology, or science. 15 Rather, they outline the basic facts of the Creation, life in the Garden of Eden, and the Fall as these facts fit into the plan of life and salvation.

This is the reason that I like civil, constructive conversation and discussion on gospel matters...because it invariably leads one to further search and study their own beliefs...which leads to a stronger testimony.

This is a great article in it's entirety, but I only pasted the two sections that I thought pertained to this thread.

I know this to be true, ALL spirits that come to earth were valiant in the pre-mortal existence. I know this, because the scriptures tell me this is true. All those who chose Lucifer's plan over Heavenly Father's plan were cast down after the war in heaven. Satan, and those who chose to follow him, can never have bodies of flesh and blood. This is critical. Because of our valiancy in the first estate, we are allowed to come to earth and receive a body of flesh and blood and to choose the straight and narrow.

Why is it critical to know that Satan and the spirits who followed him can never have bodies?

Because of these words from Joseph Smith: All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.

This places accountability firmly upon ourselves. Truly, Satan cannot make us do anything. He can only tempt, suggest, and tease...but he has no power over us. Our spirits truly do come here valiant and pure. Our spirits only become corrupted through our own agency and accountability.

I take nothing away from those who believe different than me...but for me, I have found what makes sense to me and what sounds right and fair.

I can think of nothing more beautiful than a gospel that gives everybody a chance to live in the presence of our Heavenly Father again. Those who did not have the opportunity to receive the fullness of the gospel upon this earth, will receive that opportunity in the Spirit World. That is why baptisms for the dead are so vital and crucial to our Heavenly Father's plan. If all must enter in by the same gate, but there were those that did not have the opportunity while on earth to hear of the gospel, then by having the baptism performed by proxy they are allowed the opportunity to enter in by that gate. To me, that is so beautiful. Why would a Father in Heaven, who loves all His children, only allow a select few to have the opportunity to return to Him? We ALL have the opportunity. That is beautiful. That makes sense. The Savior's atonement echoes Heavenly Father's desire for ALL of us to have the opportunity to return to Him. Without the atonement, it would not be possible for any of us to return.

To me, that just makes sense. To me, that just seems like what a loving Heavenly Father would do.

This was not directed at anybody in-particular. I just wanted to share my feelings and beliefs. I hope that it was on topic!

[Guest tomk]

A few verses I want to point-out:

Mosiah 15:26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.

• <LI class=searchitem>Alma 42: 23-24

  23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

  24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

  <LI class=searchitem>Alma 26: 21

  21 And now behold, my brethren, what natural man is there that knoweth these things? I say unto you, there is none that knoweth these things, save it be the penitent.

  <LI class=searchitem>Alma 27: 18

  18 Now was not this exceeding joy? Behold, this is joy which none receiveth save it be the truly penitent and humble seeker of happiness.

  <LI class=searchitem>Alma 29: 10

  10 And behold, when I see many of my brethren truly penitent, and coming to the Lord their God, then is my soul filled with joy; then do I remember what the Lord has done for me, yea, even that he hath heard my prayer; yea, then do I remember his merciful arm which he extended towards me.

  <LI class=searchitem>Alma 32: 7

  7 Therefore he did say no more to the other multitude; but he stretched forth his hand, and cried unto those whom he beheld, who were truly penitent, and said unto them:

• 3 Ne. 6: 13

  13 Some were lifted up in pride, and others were exceedingly humble; some did return railing for railing, while others would receive railing and persecution and all manner of afflictions, and would not turn and revile again, but were humble and penitent before God.

It is all about what we are BECOMING -- our relationship with Christ.

It is not about perfection or sinlessness.

Are we pentitent? Are we seeking to have that relationship with Christ?

If the answer is yes --- if it REALLY is yes (and Christ cannot be deceived) then we have hope of salvation through HIS merits.

[Ankh]

Greetings Tomk,

In the following you write...

We can consider ourselves "Gods" in the fact that we are "Gods in embryo" -- we are the "same species" as God the Father....we just lack the spiritual maturation.

Some, through obedience, obtained godhood in the pre-existence, while still spirits. Christ was one of those. The Holy Ghost was one of those.

So a body is not needed for Godhood, per se, but perhaps is needed for Exaltation...Heavenly Father's mode of living...being able to have spirit children.

Tomk... In reviewing your response above I underlined that which again caught my interest, that of Christ obtaining "Godhood" in the pre-existence. Where can I obtain more information/teaching on this subject... would you (and others) care to elaborate further on this statement?

My thanks in advance

Ankh

[Justice]

I'd like to get back to the issue of how the Father and Son are one. There is one very clear scripture in the New Testament. During His intercessory prayer, Christ prays about His disciples being one with Christ and His Father. Let's follow along...

John 17:

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This does not sound like one being speaking to Himself. This is worded to be very clear that one is greater than other (John 14:28 ...for my Father is greater than I.) which means they can not be the same being.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Clearly, He is praying for the "believers."

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Interesting. If:

1. The Father and the Son are the same being, then He's asking for all the believers to be joined into the same mass with them.

2. If they are 2 separate beings He is asking for them to be of the same mind, purpose, and will.

Let's see if we can get more from the text:

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Now, if you were trying to describe 2 separate beings with one mind and will, and you wanted to pray for others to have that some mind and will, there is no better way to word this. But, if you were the same being, the only thing this could be asking is for all believers to join in some mass being.

But, the icing on the cake is the next verse:

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am...

If He was praying and asking for His followers to join in mass entity, why also ask that they be with Him where He is? If they were the same being wouldn't that be a given?

This is irrefutable evidence for anyone with an open mind.

[Guest tomk]

Greetings Tomk,

In the following you write...

Tomk... In reviewing your response above I underlined that which again caught my interest, that of Christ obtaining "Godhood" in the pre-existence. Where can I obtain more information/teaching on this subject... would you (and others) care to elaborate further on this statement?

My thanks in advance

Ankh

Sure!

I know this is discussed in "Jesus the Christ" by James Talmage.

Hemi may know about an online version of this book.

I don't have a copy with me at the moment, but when I get home I will look up the relevant bits.

Here are few talks where it is mentioned:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Looking to the Savior

From that talk:

Throughout the thousand years of Book of Mormon history, many prophets bore solemn witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, of His premortal godhood, of His earthly ministry—His suffering, His death, His resurrection—and of the plan of salvation by which we can make His atonement effective in our lives. These prophets spoke from pure knowledge, knowledge that came by personal visitations of the Savior to them, by the testimony of angels who spoke with them, by visions, and by the power of the Holy Ghost. They knew whereof they spoke and could not be shaken from their testimonies.

========

He is Jehovah - the God of the Old Testament (God before He was born)

Topical Guide: Jesus Christ - Jehovah

========

He was the Creator of this Earth (under the direction of the Father):

Topical Guide: Jesus Christ, Creator

See if that is enough for you. :)

Tom

[japacific]

Where can I find some intelligences?

[Ankh]

Sure!

I know this is discussed in "Jesus the Christ" by James Talmage.

Hemi may know about an online version of this book.

I don't have a copy with me at the moment, but when I get home I will look up the relevant bits.

Here are few talks where it is mentioned:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Looking to the Savior

From that talk:

Throughout the thousand years of Book of Mormon history, many prophets bore solemn witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, of His premortal godhood, of His earthly ministry—His suffering, His death, His resurrection—and of the plan of salvation by which we can make His atonement effective in our lives. These prophets spoke from pure knowledge, knowledge that came by personal visitations of the Savior to them, by the testimony of angels who spoke with them, by visions, and by the power of the Holy Ghost. They knew whereof they spoke and could not be shaken from their testimonies.

========

He is Jehovah - the God of the Old Testament (God before He was born)

Topical Guide: Jesus Christ - Jehovah

========

He was the Creator of this Earth (under the direction of the Father):

Topical Guide: Jesus Christ, Creator

See if that is enough for you. :)

Tom

Tom... thanks. I do have James Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ." I'll look to see where I can find his mentioning of Christ's obtaining "Godhood" in the preexistence.

Also thanks for the Ensign article... the 2 topical guides I'm familiar with.

Ankh

[Guest tomk]

Tom... thanks. I do have James Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ." I'll look to see where I can find his mentioning of Christ's obtaining "Godhood" in the preexistence.

Also thanks for the Ensign article... the 2 topical guides I'm familiar with.

Ankh

Did anything I post assist with answering your question?

Tom

[Guest tomk]

Where can I find some intelligences?

Look in the mirror. :)

[Ankh]

Did anything I post assist with answering your question?

Tom

Greetings Tom,

I did look in Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ" for answers relating to Christ's obtaining of "Godhood" in the preexistence but to no avail. The more I contemplate the question of how Christ received "Godhood" in the preexistence the more other questions arise. For one... isn't "godhood" received at exaltation? If so, how did Christ receive his if he did not first take on flesh. Is it possible to receive "godhood" in the "first estate" thus bypassing the "second estate" which I thought was necessary for "exaltation/godhood?"

Brother... where am I missing it? Can anyone help me get this straight in my mind?

Thanks in advance

Ankh

[Guest tomk]

Greetings Tom,

I did look in Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ" for answers relating to Christ's obtaining of "Godhood" in the preexistence but to no avail. The more I contemplate the question of how Christ received "Godhood" in the preexistence the more other questions arise. For one... isn't "godhood" received at exaltation? If so, how did Christ receive his if he did not first take on flesh. Is it possible to receive "godhood" in the "first estate" thus bypassing the "second estate" which I thought was necessary for "exaltation/godhood?"

Brother... where am I missing it? Can anyone help me get this straight in my mind?

Thanks in advance

Ankh

In Jesus the Christ it is Chapter 4 (page 30) that talks about it.

It would seem that Godhood and Exaltation are not synonymous. Otherwise the Holy Ghost could not be a God or have been a God either.

Exaltation would seem to require a body.

[Ankh]

In Jesus the Christ it is Chapter 4 (page 30) that talks about it.

It would seem that Godhood and Exaltation are not synonymous. Otherwise the Holy Ghost could not be a God or have been a God either.

Exaltation would seem to require a body.

Greetings Tom,

Yes... you're right. If I would have thought beyond "the Son" I might have realized that the Holy Ghost is "God" and "... has NOT a body of flesh and bone, but is a personage of spirit." Now having said that, let me ask you this... since God and gods are infinite and have no beginning, what constitutes one being a God vs a god? Were the "Son" and the "Holy Ghost" appointed this status (God) by the Father cause of their position in the "Godhead?" And also this... the Son has received exaltation (Acts 2:33) but the "Holy Ghost" has not since he has yet to obtain a body which is a requirement for exaltation, right?

I hope these questions don't seem "elementary"... I'm just trying to sort out some things in my mind in order to be able to have a clearer understanding of LDS beliefs. After being exposed to "churchanity" for well over 25 years it takes time to be deprogramed of many false teachings that often cloud your mind in understanding the "restored gospel."

Thanks again Tom :)

Ankh

[Justice]

I have always thought of it like this...

In the pre-mortal existence we needed 2 things in order to become like God, or in other words, that's simply saying there were 2 things we needed to progress in order to become a god. This isn't really sacrilegious if you consider:

Acts 17: 28-29

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Many people say he is just stating what other poets have said, and not official doctrine. Yet, it is clear he repeats it and agrees with it. Truth is truth, regardless of the source.

We know we are not His "offspring" in the flesh. The only other possibility is that it is in the spirit.

Our Father in Heaven wanted to give us these two things we needed:

1) a physical body

2) to know right and wrong

Everyone born into this life has a physical body, of this we are certain and need no evidence.

Listen to what Lucifer and God said about the second:

Genesis 3: (before and after "man" ate the fruit)

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Many think this was a lie, but it was not the lie Lucifer told Eve. It is verified by God after Adam ate the fruit:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, we now have the two things we needed to be as God.

It really is simple and I don't know how all other churches interpret these verses, but they have to be a reach because they really are quite clear.

By the way, the lie Lucifer told Eve was that she would not die. Look at the verse just before:

Genesis 3:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

[Justice]

what constitutes one being a God vs a god?

One of the three beings that makes up our Godhead is a God... all others are god. The three that make up our Godhead are the only Gods that those born to this earth have anything to do with.

[Ankh]

Greetings Justice,

In the following you write...

I have always thought of it like this...

In the pre-mortal existence we needed 2 things in order to become like God, or in other words, that's simply saying there were 2 things we needed to progress in order to become a god.

Justice... wouldn't you mean that there were 2 things we needed to progress in order to become like Heavenly Father, vs becoming a god? Are we not already gods (gods in embryo) and that as intelligences we have always existed and were NOT created "gods" but were created "sons of God." God does not differentiate Himself from man based on His Godhood but rather His Eternal Fatherhood.

This isn't really sacrilegious if you consider:

Acts 17: 28-29

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Many people say he is just stating what other poets have said, and not official doctrine. Yet, it is clear he repeats it and agrees with it. Truth is truth, regardless of the source.

We know we are not His "offspring" in the flesh. The only other possibility is that it is in the spirit.

Yes... would shine light on Hebrews 12:9 as well as Numbers 27:16. We are His "literal" spirit children.

Our Father in Heaven wanted to give us these two things we needed:

1) a physical body

2) to know right and wrong

Everyone born into this life has a physical body, of this we are certain and need no evidence.

Listen to what Lucifer and God said about the second:

Genesis 3: (before and after "man" ate the fruit)

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Many think this was a lie, but it was not the lie Lucifer told Eve. It is verified by God after Adam ate the fruit:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, we now have the two things we needed to be as God.

That's interesting Justice that you quoted those 2 verses from Genesis. I was pondering them yesterday... asking myself, "how could Lucifer have said they "shall be as gods" when in actuality they were already "gods?" Was he hiding this fact from them as he does to most individuals today? Yes, he did tell them a "half/truth" they would "know" good and evil but only after they took on mortality. Now where I get thrown for a loop is in verse 22 where it is said, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." I can understand the Father saying that since God was once as man now is, but the Son could not as he had not yet taken on mortality???

It really is simple and I don't know how all other churches interpret these verses, but they have to be a reach because they really are quite clear.

You be surprised of all the different interpretations

By the way, the lie Lucifer told Eve was that he would not die. Look at the verse just before:

Genesis 3:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Exactly! The "day" that is spoken in Genesis 2:17 in which God said "they would surely die was spoken in reference to God's time not man's. Remember a "day" with the LORD is as a 1,000 years, and Adam died in that "day"... he was 930.

Thanks Justice :)

Ankh

[Guest tomk]

Greetings Tom,

Yes... you're right. If I would have thought beyond "the Son" I might have realized that the Holy Ghost is "God" and "... has NOT a body of flesh and bone, but is a personage of spirit." Now having said that, let me ask you this... since God and gods are infinite and have no beginning, what constitutes one being a God vs a god? Were the "Son" and the "Holy Ghost" appointed this status (God) by the Father cause of their position in the "Godhead?" And also this... the Son has received exaltation (Acts 2:33) but the "Holy Ghost" has not since he has yet to obtain a body which is a requirement for exaltation, right?

I hope these questions don't seem "elementary"... I'm just trying to sort out some things in my mind in order to be able to have a clearer understanding of LDS beliefs. After being exposed to "churchanity" for well over 25 years it takes time to be deprogramed of many false teachings that often cloud your mind in understanding the "restored gospel."

Thanks again Tom :)

Ankh

It looks like Justice has given this a thorough treatment and is in a dialogue with you -- so I'll let you and Justice work-out the God vs god question.

While I know these answers are to be had -- it's not where my focus lies right now during mortality. My focus is on the saving principles of Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. My focus is on the Son of God, on having a relationship with Him.

These other things - I will admit - are very interesting, but irrelevant for now.

But by all means -- keep coming with your questions! I appreciate the respect and patience you are extending to us as we try to explain.

Exaltation occurs POST resurrection. God

Before that we can attain to being god.

Tom

[Ankh]

Greetings Tom,

It looks like Justice has given this a thorough treatment and is in a dialogue with you -- so I'll let you and Justice work-out the God vs god question.

Thanks Tom, but you're input is appreciated as well. You're the one that got me thinking all this :)

While I know these answers are to be had -- it's not where my focus lies right now during mortality. My focus is on the saving principles of Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. My focus is on the Son of God, on having a relationship with Him.

These other things - I will admit - are very interesting, but irrelevant for now.

I agree Tom that they are irrelevant and are not vital to my salvation... but being one who has an inquiring mind, there are things I just would like to know... not that I always get an immediate answer, but I am told to "ask," "seek," and "knock." If the brethren can help, great. If not I'll continue to ask, seek and knock at the throne of grace.

But by all means -- keep coming with your questions! I appreciate the respect and patience you are extending to us as we try to explain.

Thanks again Tom. I appreciate everyone's patience with me as well. Having been re-introduced to the LDS faith (after a 10 year absence) has been an eye-opener as I am re-learning what I once took for granted and threw away as dung. Wow. was I ever so wrong

Exaltation occurs POST resurrection. God

Before that we can attain to being god.

Tom

Got it

Ankh

[Justice]

Justice... wouldn't you mean that there were 2 things we needed to progress in order to become like Heavenly Father, vs becoming a god?

Yes, though worded differently, they mean the same in my mind. Since Heavenly Father is a God, becoming like Him would be becoming a god. Just as it says in Genesis, "they have become as us," or "ye shall become as god."

It is more than interesting that to "become as God" is equated to "knowing good and evil." Lucifer learned this in God's presence, so according to the law He can not live in God's presence.

We did not learn this in God's presence because we did not rebel. So, He provided a way where we could learn this and still yet be redeemed from the learning. It doesn't all make sense yet, but it's interesting for sure.

Are we not already gods (gods in embryo) and that as intelligences we have always existed and were NOT created "gods" but were created "sons of God."

If you consider that offspring is the same it's parents then yes we are "man." I don't believe "god" describes who we are, but what we've attained. In the pre-mortal existence we did not know good and evil, which is attributed to "becoming as God."

I don't know what we knew and understood in the pre-mortal existence, but I know we couldn't have all knowledge because we did not have the knowledge of good and evil, or the knowledge of procreation.

God does not differentiate Himself from man based on His Godhood but rather His Eternal Fatherhood.

We definately are different than He is. Maybe we are at a different phase of development, but different nonetheless. Just as an infant is different than an adult. The term "god" might better be compared to "infant" and "adult" than to "man." We are the family of man, and He is Ahman (in the Adamic language), even though I'm not exactly sure what it means.

[aliasgeorge]

Greetings Tom,

Thanks Tom, but you're input is appreciated as well. You're the one that got me thinking all this :)

I agree Tom that they are irrelevant and are not vital to my salvation... but being one who has an inquiring mind, there are things I just would like to know... not that I always get an immediate answer, but I am told to "ask," "seek," and "knock." If the brethren can help, great. If not I'll continue to ask, seek and knock at the throne of grace.

Thanks again Tom. I appreciate everyone's patience with me as well. Having been re-introduced to the LDS faith (after a 10 year absence) has been an eye-opener as I am re-learning what I once took for granted and threw away as dung. Wow. was I ever so wrong

Got it

Ankh

Ankh,

Interesting questions. I think one of the impediments to this discussion are clear and solid definitions of words... I recommend you read "the promised messiah" by BRMcconkie. Chapter 10 in particular, entitled "Christ is the God of Israel" renders some great definitions of words which clarify much of the scriptures concerning, eternity, eternitity to eternity, how Jesus Christ is the first-born spirit child, yet also from beginning to end, from eternity to eternity, etc. (need to combine with chapter 9) Very clear and concise and sound explanations on this issue.

Concerning "God" and the status of a "God", read chapter 8: "there is one God".

Concerning the premortal status of Christ as God, read chapter 7: "Messiah is God."

Concerning how the premortal messiah is "God":chapter 12: "messiah is the perfect one"

I guess a thorough explanation can be found in chapters 7-10.

The whole book has some incredible insights and clear explanations concerning deeper doctrinal issues. Make sure you read the last 2 chapters as well--incredible.

IMHO, many will write their two cents here in the forum, and I just gave you mine, but nearly all is speculation. These readings will not cross the "t's" and dot the "I's" concerning all of your questions per say (it will on some though), but they will give you a sound foundation upon which you can stand. Then you will be able to discount many speculative opinions and theories because they refute another gospel truth. Many opinions in this forum can be effectively checked off the list if we understand and hold true to these doctrinal foundations.

As for "intelligence" and "intelligences," read "the way to perfection" by JFieldingSmith. There are two chapters which specifically address these issues. And as for the "intelligences" which abraham saw, which were graded and possessed agency, they are to be understood as "personal spirits," or spirit-born children of God our Father (see "doctrinal exposition of the father and the son" by the 1st pres and quorum of the 12 apostles).

This is a lot of reading, but it sounds like you're genuinely willing to put in the time and effort to understand these things, so I figure I'd just point you to some great sources rather than give you my opinion on the matter.

[Ankh]

Greetings aliasgeorge,

In the following you write,

Ankh,

Interesting questions. I think one of the impediments to this discussion are clear and solid definitions of words... I recommend you read "the promised messiah" by BRMcconkie. Chapter 10 in particular, entitled "Christ is the God of Israel" renders some great definitions of words which clarify much of the scriptures concerning, eternity, eternitity to eternity, how Jesus Christ is the first-born spirit child, yet also from beginning to end, from eternity to eternity, etc. (need to combine with chapter 9) Very clear and concise and sound explanations on this issue.

Concerning "God" and the status of a "God", read chapter 8: "there is one God".

Concerning the premortal status of Christ as God, read chapter 7: "Messiah is God."

Concerning how the premortal messiah is "God":chapter 12: "messiah is the perfect one"

I guess a thorough explanation can be found in chapters 7-10.

The whole book has some incredible insights and clear explanations concerning deeper doctrinal issues. Make sure you read the last 2 chapters as well--incredible.

Aliasgeorge... thanks for the tip. I do have Mr. McConkie's 5 volume set on the Messiah on my list of books to purchase. Sounds like some interesting material.

IMHO, many will write their two cents here in the forum, and I just gave you mine, but nearly all is speculation. These readings will not cross the "t's" and dot the "I's" concerning all of your questions per say (it will on some though), but they will give you a sound foundation upon which you can stand. Then you will be able to discount many speculative opinions and theories because they refute another gospel truth. Many opinions in this forum can be effectively checked off the list if we understand and hold true to these doctrinal foundations.

I have been thoroughly reading much LDS material over the months so I am again becoming acquainted with the Church's teachings as well as the opinion of others.

As for "intelligence" and "intelligences," read "the way to perfection" by JFieldingSmith. There are two chapters which specifically address these issues. And as for the "intelligences" which abraham saw, which were graded and possessed agency, they are to be understood as "personal spirits," or spirit-born children of God our Father (see "doctrinal exposition of the father and the son" by the 1st pres and quorum of the 12 apostles).

I'll check it out. As to the issue of "intelligences" I've come to a much clearer understanding on this matter over the last week in my own research as well as with the help of some of the brethren here (Tom K, Justice...) who were a great help. Thanks again brothers

This is a lot of reading, but it sounds like you're genuinely willing to put in the time and effort to understand these things, so I figure I'd just point you to some great sources rather than give you my opinion on the matter.

By all means aliasgeorge do feel free to give your opinion(s). But I do thank you for this post and of the reading material you have pointed out to help me for the furtherence of my LDS education. By the way... isn't that 5 volume set by McConkie out of print? I've seen it on Ebay, but desertbooks.com has it as not available. What's the story?

Peace to you always

Ankh

[rameumptom]

Ankh,

Let me throw in my 2 cents worth, which is about all I can afford due to gas prices....

D&C 88 and 93 tell us about Intelligence, light and truth. It seems to me that as we move toward God or away from him, we gain or lose light and truth in ourselves. God sends throughout all of space the Light or Spirit of Christ. This is His power that allows all things to organize and function.

The more we are infused with the Light of Christ, the more God-like we are. Jesus and the Holy Ghost became so God-like in the premortal existence that the infusion of God's light in them (indwelling, if you will) that they had already received the power and ability to be God-like. Still, we see with Jesus that he not completed (exalted) as of yet, because he still required mortality, a body, and resurrection. Obviously, there are levels of godhood. Many, including me, read Abraham 3 in this way. Those surrounding God were the "great and noble ones", not just the average spirit (organized intelligence). These were gods before the Earth was formed, though they were not yet exalted.

The term "Father" requires defining. Jesus is both the Father and the Son, according to scripture. Just as I am both a father and son, depending on the role I am playing at the moment, so is Christ the "very Eternal Father" as well as the Son of God. Our Father in Heaven is also our Father, due to the role he plays as our Creator, and Benefactor. Even if we weren't created in the way mortal children are born, fatherhood is still a term that applies. I am a step-father and an adoptive father, and have been a foster father in the past. While I haven't been involved in the biological creation of these children, my actions and efforts have still given me that title. God's goal is to save his children in the family unit, with as much joy and truth and light each is willing to receive. Whatever amount of light and truth the Spirit of Christ has infused us with will determine what glory we will receive. All will return to be his family in a kingdom of glory, except for sons of perdition. Now, depending upon the amount of glory an individual is willing and able to receive will determine the glories, responsibilities and opportunities given in the next life, but they are all still His children.

[aliasgeorge]

Ankh,

Let me throw in my 2 cents worth, which is about all I can afford due to gas prices....

D&C 88 and 93 tell us about Intelligence, light and truth. It seems to me that as we move toward God or away from him, we gain or lose light and truth in ourselves. God sends throughout all of space the Light or Spirit of Christ. This is His power that allows all things to organize and function.

The more we are infused with the Light of Christ, the more God-like we are. Jesus and the Holy Ghost became so God-like in the premortal existence that the infusion of God's light in them (indwelling, if you will) that they had already received the power and ability to be God-like. Still, we see with Jesus that he not completed (exalted) as of yet, because he still required mortality, a body, and resurrection. Obviously, there are levels of godhood. Many, including me, read Abraham 3 in this way. Those surrounding God were the "great and noble ones", not just the average spirit (organized intelligence). These were gods before the Earth was formed, though they were not yet exalted.

The term "Father" requires defining. Jesus is both the Father and the Son, according to scripture. Just as I am both a father and son, depending on the role I am playing at the moment, so is Christ the "very Eternal Father" as well as the Son of God. Our Father in Heaven is also our Father, due to the role he plays as our Creator, and Benefactor. Even if we weren't created in the way mortal children are born, fatherhood is still a term that applies. I am a step-father and an adoptive father, and have been a foster father in the past. While I haven't been involved in the biological creation of these children, my actions and efforts have still given me that title. God's goal is to save his children in the family unit, with as much joy and truth and light each is willing to receive. Whatever amount of light and truth the Spirit of Christ has infused us with will determine what glory we will receive. All will return to be his family in a kingdom of glory, except for sons of perdition. Now, depending upon the amount of glory an individual is willing and able to receive will determine the glories, responsibilities and opportunities given in the next life, but they are all still His children.

In addition to rameumptom's explanation, I again highly recommend "doctrinal exposition of the father and the son" by the 1st pres and 12. It puts for the doctrine concerning Father and Son and how Jesus can be both in respect to us.

[aliasgeorge]

By the way... isn't that 5 volume set by McConkie out of print? I've seen it on Ebay, but desertbooks.com has it as not available. What's the story?

Peace to you always

Ankh

As for being out of print, it was in print last year, and you just missed it apparently. I'm sure it'll be in print again in a year or so. Deseret book does cyclical marketing schemes to boost sales when it is printed. All about profit margins IMHO. Deseret book does the same with all its "series." like journal of disources--out of print currently, but in a couple of years, they'll do a "one in a lifetime" marketing scheme to get everyone to buy it again as a "last chance" offer. They do it with all their series which are older. Then they sell a lot more because people think it's their one chance to buy it...

I've heard people whisper in the corners of the church that the church leadership is trying to supress elder McConkie's writings by taking them all out of print. Sheer nonsense. Mormon Doctrine is the most widely sold and quote book in the church after the standard works, and it was revised with spencer W Kimball under first-presidency direction. His son, Joseph Fielding McConkie wrote a book entitled "The Bruce R McConkie Story" and has a chapter about what really happened.

The people who pass along such reduculous and slanderous (libel I guess if you read it online) things are the same people who refuse to believe in the sound doctrines taught within his books. Elder McConkie gets smeared more than his share, because he taught the truth so clearly! When truth is taught clearly, it cuts people to the core, and destroys their "craft" or false ideas and notions which are not true. They get angry, and the only way to combat him is the defame his name and discredit his works. They attack his character unjustly, becasue they cannot attack his teachings as they are built upon the firm foundation (same thing they do with Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, etc.). He references all his teachings soundly in the scriptures and presidency declarations, so if you don't believe him, you can just look up his references and read the scriptures yourself.

Anyway, good luck.

[Hemidakota]

Why would the world weigh more? Conservation of mass would seem to indicate the weight of the world should not change.

One thing that seems be increasing is the world's population.

Conservation of mass would seem to indicate that this alone would not make the world weigh more ... because the bodies are coming from the nutrients the mother takes in, which have "always been on the earth" since the time of Adam.

So more bodies would not seem to account for the change in mass.

However, if bodies have spirits, and those spirits are coming from someplace other than the earth - those spirit bodies DO have some mass - and thus would seem to be making the earth heavier.

Tom

The weight factor is a matter of what was captured from space and what is release too space. There is a difference but at this time, does it really matter? No.