Do murderers have a chance for redemption in the spirit world?

[skalenfehl]

The great flood of Noah and also the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and perfect examples. Consider the children of Israel who were slaves in Egypt who begged for deliverance. Finally the Lord heard their cries and freed them, showed them mighty miracles. He accompanied them in a cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. He parted the Red Sea so that they could escape the pursuing Egyptians led by Rameses. Yet they rebelled thereafter, built a golden calf and worshiped it.

The Lord has said, "How oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not?" He cause them to wander in the wilderness for 40 years and gave them ten commandments to live by before finally bringing them to the land of Israel. Still over and over they rebelled and chose not to live the law and killed the prophets when they came preaching for them to turn back to the Lord and instead they killed the prophets. What value does salt have if it loses its flavor? If we never learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.

[skalenfehl]

Understood.

I just want to add one more thing before going too far off the subject. In order to understand the consequences as discussed in this topic (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, Perdition), we must understand the Plan of Salvation. In order to understand the Plan of Salvation, we must understand the Fall of Adam and in order to understand the Fall of Adam, we need to understand our pre-mortal existence. Without fully understanding the scope of God's work and our creation it is easy to pick apart the pieces of the puzzle. One needs to understand the whole picture. Then one can fully and intelligently accept or deny it and everyone will have this opportunity before being judged. This is what we believe.

[MorningStar]

The Bible is filled with examples of God sending prophets to tell people that he's going to destroy them if they don't do what he says, and of him doing nasty things to people who don't. This isn't simple cause and effect... it's not like a parent telling their child not to run with scissors. You don't accidentally poke out your eye... it's more like God grabs the scissors, jams them in on purpose, then sends a plague of locusts to eat all your food. That'll teach you. It would be different if he relied on the natural consequences of bad choices, but he doesn't. If God is/was real, I'd have the same level of trust for him as I would for a mob boss running a protection racket.

I think in the Bible examples, the wicked are a danger to the righteous and are given many chances to knock it off. Unfortunately, having a do over became necessary rather than risk more of His children not returning to Him.

[Guest Xzain]

Fent-

I marvel at your ability to take any subject and focus it on yourself and your own situation. Please understand that we don't like to go over the same 'I don't think God exists' scenario with you- if you want public attention for your own viewpoints, do it on your own thread- don't hijack someone else's.

Back to the OP-

I remember hearing a talk (can't remember if it was at General Conference, a CES Fireside, or something else) where Gordon B. Hinckley posed a question 'often asked' of him, namely, if the Atonement covers murder. His response made a profound impact on me. He said:

"The Atonement covers everything. I repeat: the Atonement covers everything."

And then went on to the next subject. (If anyone knows the talk where he says that, I would love to have a link to it!)

What I think he meant by such a terse response is that the Atonement covers everything that one will truly repent for. The taking of life is heinous, yes, but one's upbringing, moral milieu, political situation, etc. have to be taken into account before understanding how much one's taking of another's life went against the Light of Christ that they possessed at the time and, therefore, how dire of a sin it actually was (Note: the taking of innocent life is always sin). After having been shown the light of the Gospel and undesrstanding the abomination it is to take a life, the shedding of innocent blood will not be forgiven (to my knowledge).

[Guest Xzain]

*****I have removed the content of this post from the general arena.***** Should anyone need the contents of it, I have saved it and will be more than happy to share it with anyone with a valid reason to peruse it.

This post was a long, poignant attack on fent's behavior and posting methodology on this thread. I do not apologize for any of the content of it- indeed, I stand by every assertion I made, and I believe that it needed to be in the public arena for a time- but out of respect for fent's reputation I have removed it. Suffice it to say I examined fent's post history and behavior exhibited on this thread, and I subjected it to intense critique and heated dissection. My conclusion was that fent largely manipulated the flow of conversation to discuss her own philosophies and cause contention, and when she was called out on it she deleted her posts and blamed everyone else while maintaining her own innocence- an innocence I still do not believe she actually has kept. I believe it needed to be said because I have seen similar behavior on another thread, and am well aware of the many (including myself) who grow tired of such things.

Should anyone directly involved by my post wish to access a copy of it, I will send it via PM without any hesitation. I am not deleting this to cover up anything- I admit, wholeheartedly, that I wrote a public message that contained very personal attacks on posting methodology and tacit questions about the character of another on this forum. I do not believe it violated any rules, either of the forum or of civil conduct, because of the specifics of the situation.

It is my sincere wish that we return to the conversation that was taking place before I interjected.

[Guest Xzain]

After reading the discussion on Outer Darkness and spirit prison, I think it is interesting to wonder:

Is the torment received from those in spirit prison similar to the torture received by those who are cast into eternal Outer Darkness?

[skalenfehl]

After reading the discussion on Outer Darkness and spirit prison, I think it is interesting to wonder:

Is the torment received from those in spirit prison similar to the torture received by those who are cast into eternal Outer Darkness?

It must be the same. Consider the rich man and the parable of and Lazarus in the New Testament. I think the only difference is that the Hell that is Spirit Prison is only temporary in the grand scheme of things for those who will yet inherit a kingdom of glory verses the few who are doomed to inherit perdition.

*shudders*

[skalenfehl]

removed

F--t, you want us to leave you alone, yet you continue to set yourself up with posts that beg answers and exploitation of your belief system. Remember where you are posting? This is LDS.net.

removed

[Guest Xzain]

It must be the same. Consider the rich man and the parable of and Lazarus in the New Testament. I think the only difference is that the Hell that is Spirit Prison is only temporary in the grand scheme of things for those who will yet inherit a kingdom of glory verses the few who are doomed to inherit perdition.

*shudders*

That's what I've always thought, as well. I do wonder how having a physical body will add to the pain of permanent Outer Darkness, though- I remember a Doctrine and Covenants reference saying of those cast into Outer Darkness that 'their worm never dieth'- I assume that means actual worms are infesting their body..

*shudders with skalenfehl*

[skalenfehl]

Here's an interesting article:

WHERE THE WORM DIETH NOT

[skalenfehl]

I did give you a general reply, if you'll notice. From then you continued posting with follow-ups as if my reply was directed specifically at you, when it was directed at your general question.

[skalenfehl]

You were not baited. You interjected in a discussion about Hell:

removed

to which I replied

For debate's sake, let's assume that there is a God and that Jesus Christ did need to die to make an infinite and final atonement for our sins. Christ took upon himself this responsibility because we could NOT make that endless atonement for ourselves. He "ransomed" us. He "purchased" our sins with His blood. Now if all this is true and we choose to take responsibility for ourselves instead of look to Him, then we will indeed be given that "personal responsibility." We will suffer even as He suffered, who descended below all man, suffering the pains of sin and death for everyone.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:15-18

Doctrine and Covenants 122:7-8

This will occur while in Spirit Prison, hence the term Hell until we make that restitution and can inherit our just reward after the resurrection.

I'm happy to discuss this via pm but from this point forward let's stay on topic.

[skalenfehl]

Moving along...

[skalenfehl]

Xzain, consider Cain's case. With a resurrected, immortal body in perdition there is no flesh to devour for it never dies again. However in Spirit prison there is no body, only spirit so again no worm to devour flesh. The torment will be purely spiritual--spiritual death! Separation from God forever.

[pam]

Let me ask a question that I guess I am still confused on. I've always been taught that "murder" is one of the unforgiveable sins. When you have the Mansons of the world...where do they fit in?

[skalenfehl]

I believe we have to consider the context of murder as an unpardonable sin described in D&C and other revelations. There can be no restitution of this sin for a life cannot be brought back. Consider King David who sent Uriah to his death. If I understand correctly David will suffer his time in Spirit Prison but was promised he would not be kept their but he also forfeited the Celestial Kingdom. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. It has to do with sinning against the Holy Ghost. I assume Manson never had a chance to receive the fullness of the gospel or the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is conceivable that he will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom. We can assume where someone will go based on the law, but we can't assume their actual outcome as we do not know their hearts or life circumstances. People need a fair shake in their probation and I don't believe all murderers had the same fair shake that, say, King David did or Cain for that matter.

[pam]

That makes sense in regards to those that have never had the fullness of the gospel presented to them. I think I now become curious about those that have had this opportunity. Someone such as Mark Hacking. I know we have no way of knowing what the outcomes will be. Heavenly Father will judge based on what was in their hearts. Just makes me wonder.

[Ragnar]

A nice example to look at for an answer is looking at King David and Uriah.

Doctrine and Covenants 132

Latter-day Saint Community

He'll be living in the Telestial kingdon. Right now he's spending a long time weeping, wailing, and gnashing his teeth, but...

I have a Question

David is promised that his soul would not remain in hell (see Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:27, 31), and it was promised that others as well would be delivered from spirit prison (see Isa. 49:8–9; John 5:25).

On the other hand, if you murder with out having the gospel, receive the gospel and repent, it sounds like you can be fully forgiven. The Book of Mormon has examples of this.

Home & Family- Gospel Art Picture Kit

The Anti-Nephi-Lehies would not take up weapons to fight the Lamanites. The people had repented of their past sins and murders, and God had forgiven them. If they were to kill again, they would not be forgiven. (See Alma 24:613.)

Murder after you receive the Gospel and you better be ready to have a very HOT experience for a looong time! Now exactly the type of hot experience you'll enjoy!!!

[WANDERER]

Edit: Read Kamperfoelies post and reorganised as I sometimes say things in a scattered way.

Pondering repentance of murderers and their chance for redemption in the last days...

And what about those that have less time in spirit prison...?

Tangents: but connected to the idea of redemption and it's course: responses after reading a link from Skalenfehl on Worms:

So...what kind of bodies will they have in Spirit Prison....?

And ummmmm, when the LDS go into share the gospel prior to the last judgment...what will that be like? I'm still having problems with picturing them witnessing in hellfire, but it might be one of those questions that don't have an answer.

[Guest Kamperfoelie]

This thread seems to have gone just a bit off-track... The question (what i read into it) was what a murderer's chances are of making it to heaven, if and when they repent. I've seen eight pages of which kingdom might be available, or what post-mortal punishment they might yet have to look forward to. I think one of the few on-point answers was the following (on page 1):

Quote:

I believe that once saved, Jesus covers all sin. He covers ALL past and future sins of a true believer.

WOW! Jesus Covers Sins I haven’t even done! And even if I do really bad ones (like Murder) he covers those and I’m saved?

That isn’t the view of the LDS doctrine, but that’s nice that is how you view it.

It isn't? I was under the impression that accepting Christ, led to being born again. Being "born again"... (say it with me). You become a new person, and lay down the old man. Doesnt this lead to a tabula rasa situation? It seems contradictive to first say okay all´s forgiven AND forgotten, but it will still be held against you when deciding where you go after death...

On another, somewhat related point:

I met with the missionaries last week, and had a lesson on repentance. At the end I was invited to repent. We then discussed moments in our life when we had been brought to repent.

Granted: I have not been a saint (no pun intended) but I have been in a place where I sought/found God before this session and have been through a trying process of guilt, repentance and forgiveness. That is something between God and myself however.

For the missionaries to voice their implied opinion that i might be a 'bad man' with a lot on my conscience was kind of a confrontational experience for me. It stemmed, I think, from a feeling of moral superiority that I suspect more saints have.

Superior gospel and knowledge is not automatically synonymous with a superior walk, though (in my opinion).

True to my suspicion, when asked about their own experiences with repentance, the elders indicated they had not done anything "really bad". After a little prompting, and digging a little deeper, some things did actually surface, but they were quickly discounted as being merely naughty, sooner than outright evil.

This leads to a new supposition. I suspect a murderer who is (truely) born again has a better shot of going to good places, than a 'saint' who justifies his wrongdoings as being no more than naughtiness, and does not repent.

What do we think?

[WANDERER]

Answer to question one about the time frame for repentance:

From whenever they died+1 1000 years

Among those at death who are assigned to hell are the heirs of the telestial kingdom and the sons of perdition. These spirits will remain in hell, or spirit prison, suffering “the wrath of Almighty God” until the millennial reign is over. (See D&C 76:106.) At that time, they will be resurrected in the last resurrection, the resurrection of the unjust. (See D&C 76:16–17, 81–85; John 5:28–29.)

Do murderers go to Heaven?

Elder McConkie wrote that even most murderers will come out of hell, or the spirit prison, in the last resurrection to live in telestial glory:

“When the Lord paraphrases the language of Rev. 21:8 in latter-day revelation (D&C 63:17–18 and D&C 76:103–106) he omits murderers from the list of evil persons. Their inclusion here by John, however, coupled with the fact that only those who deny the truth after receiving a perfect knowledge of it shall become sons of perdition, is a clear indication that murderers shall eventually go to the telestial kingdom, unless of course there are some among those destined to be sons of perdition who are also murderers.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965–73, 3:584.)

WHo ministers to those in Spirit Prison?

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the administration of the celestial.

What then happens?

those in spirit prison go to terrestrial or outer darkness

those in terrestrial inherit a renewed terrestrial earth

celestial go to the celestial

I think?

[aliasgeorge]

Hi everyone. Do murderers get a chance to repent of their sins and go to one of the heavenly kingdoms when in the Spirit World or are they automatically condemned to Outer Darkness? Also, what if the murderer repents during this life?

If there is one thing learned in these postings, is that Jesus Christ is the final judge and not you and I (and thank goodness). I know these principles have already been covered, so no need to rehash them again with me in subsequent posts, but if murderers cannot be saved, then what of the anti-nephi-lehi's? What of men who get first-presidency permission to be baptized after comitting murder? Then again, what of Cain, who saw, walked and talked with God, and then killed Abel? God is the judge. We do not know the hearts and minds of the murder, we do not know the motives or deceptions, we do not know how much mental disease and brainwashing will impact judgement--only God can judge, and his judgement is just.

All we need to know is that every murderer goes through hell, and some never make it out. But every individual regardless of what they have done, will have a better, purer, happier, and more joyous existence both here and in the eternities if they will turn to jesus christ and, seek repentance and live his laws and commandments.

[tubaloth]

Is the torment received from those in spirit prison similar to the torture received by those who are cast into eternal Outer Darkness?

I think the only difference is that the Hell that is Spirit Prison is only temporary in the grand scheme of things for those who will yet inherit a kingdom of glory verses the few who are doomed to inherit perdition.

Where does this idea come from that there is suffering in the Spirit Prison?

There is spirit prison with out the gospel… but the so called Suffer (or Hell) part is AFTER spirit prison not during it?

I thought this was clear, but it seems like there is still some confusion?

Death -> Spirit Prison (for those with out the gospel) -> choose not to repent (to accept Christ and the atonement) -> Send to Outer Darkness during the Millennium to pay for there sins -> Resurrected at the last judgment to go to the Telestial Kingdom.

Also, the term Repent is used pretty loosely here (by me at least) those that are sent to OD aren’t really repenting, they are more just paying the price of Justice (for the law).

Repentance would have to come during Spirit Prison, and before the judgment (that would send them to OD). That’s why its kind of tough to really understand what level of Repentance would happen. I would think, if somebody does fully repent (as much as possible) they wouldn’t be going to the Telestial Kingdom, but go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

That’s the big different between the Terrestrial and Telestial, one accepts Christ and the Atonement, the other doesn’t. Its really all depending on how accountable we are. For Faithful members its really tough to overcome how far we can fall!

[KosherXMorg]

Hi everyone. Do murderers get a chance to repent of their sins and go to one of the heavenly kingdoms when in the Spirit World or are they automatically condemned to Outer Darkness? Also, what if the murderer repents during this life?

The D&C says that murderers can't repent.

The Book of Mormon says they can.

You decide.

I go with # 2

The D&C also says a repeat adulterer can't repent.

The Book of Mormon says as often as we repent we will be forgiven.

Again, you decide. Me? #2

[tubaloth]

Do murderers go to Heaven?

Is telestial Kingdom part of your definition of Heaven? If so Yes, if not, then NO.

Your quote explains it as good as any (and I guess kind of what I just wrote in my other post).

WHo ministers to those in Spirit Prison?

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the administration of the celestial.

This doesn’t really make sense.

Minsters in the spirit world are those that have the gospel and are bringing it to those with out the Gospel.

The versus your quote is about those in the Telestial Kingdom, this is more showing how those from the Higher Kingdoms can go down to the lower kingdoms, but the lower kingdoms can’t go up. I don’t really know how much teaching/ministration would happen because.

1. you don’t change from Telestial to Terrestial, that’s why its called a final Judgment.

2. There isn’t enough light and truth in the Telestial Kingdom to teach them the fullness of the gospel.

those in spirit prison go to terrestrial or outer darkness

Those that are still left in the Spirit Prison after everybody had a chance to accept the gospel, then go to OD, and then Telestial. Mostly because the Telestail get judged last.

I’m not sure if those that are in the spirit world, that re-accpet the gospel (after it was taught to them AGAIN) that are ending up going to the Terrestial kingdom, if they stay in spirit prison or if they get to go to the other side.

those in terrestrial inherit a renewed terrestrial earth

Yes.

celestial go to the celestial

Yes these go to a Celestial Earth, which I guess our Earth is suppose to become one of these. I think mercury becomes a Terrestrial Earth (just kidding).