Why Does God Allow This?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jul 16 2004, 06:24 AM

don't really see the relelvance in knowing God's opinion

Then what is the point of your mormon faith?

I'm sure some will disagree with this, but here is my opinionated response to that 'nice dig'. I don't think we'll ever KNOW God's opinion. I think one of the reasons for religion is to try to decipher what His opinion might be. Usually, people choose a denomination that most fits their beliefs about God. Then they come together with like-minded individuals and worship God (or however they may refer to their god), and try their best to figure things out. What is so wrong with that?

TR2, why don't you share with us what you 'know' God's opinion is? Enlighten us all, please!

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jul 16 2004, 07:37 AM

I don't think we'll ever KNOW God's opinion.

'Ever' is a mighty long time.

[srm]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jul 15 2004, 09:42 AM

I have to say I feel a bit judged here.  But that's what I get for coming to an LDS board when I'm not LDS!

when you toss such a question or view out why are you suprised that we might scrutinize it? In order to come to an opinion we have to ask and make, well, judgements.

So what happened with you, srm?  Did you personally see the face of God as he told you it was true?  Wow, guess I missed out!

No, but I've received and continue to receive a witness of the spirit that is as clear as seeing his face. You're right, you missed out. But it is never too late.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Jul 16 2004, 08:57 AM

I don't think we'll ever KNOW God's opinion.

'Ever' is a mighty long time.

Come on... I mean in this life!

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jul 16 2004, 09:32 AM

Come on... I mean in this life!

Well why didn't you say so in the first place? All this abiguity in the written word just means that people in a couple of thousand years will be unable to figure out a categorical meaning from your writings.

Some will think you meant eternity, some will think you only meant this life. There will be divisions and people will be forced to debate the real meaning over the internet.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jul 16 2004, 03:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jul 16 2004, 03:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bizabra@Jul 16 2004, 01:00 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@Jul 15 2004, 02:12 AM

What a depressing way to look at life....

NOT depressing in the least! I embrace life and make the most of it while it lasts.

Why do you find my philosophy to be depressing? I am curious why.

Your philosophy works for you, helping you to be a better person, a better citizen, sibling, child, partner, friend, worker, etc. doesn't it? Well, my philsophy does that for me, too. I feel more inspired to be a better human because of my beliefs. Not depressing, but inspiring.

I do understand where you're coming from, Bizabra, and I respect your opinion. I also agree with you that your beliefs result in your making the most of life here and now, and trying to do all you can to help and make a difference while you're here, since you think this is all you get. I've heard that argument a lot since I'm friends with a few agnostic/atheists. I think that as a result, atheists seem to be some of the biggest humanitarians I've met - giving lots of money and time to charitable causes.

However, I have the same concern as Faerie. I would find it totally depressing to not believe in an afterlife of some type.

Also, when I look at the beauty of this earth, and the miracle of my child, I just find it impossible that it's all some accident where chaos turned into some bacteria from which cells specialized to become an entire human being with all its different organ systems, thoughts such as we're talking about, and feelings of love and hate. (Yikes, that was a long sentence!) In my opinion, that's just too much to come from sheer coincidence!

Ah, but there IS an afterlife. It consists in the various particles of your being, matter and energy, being released and made available to other life forms.

It is hard to give up the ego that wants to exist always, I do understand that, I'm pretty attached to the idea and current reality of my "self", but I take comfort in the thought that the ME I AM is comprised of matter and energy that is part of the cycle of life. I am part of the earth, and I will return my components to it to be reused again and again. In this way we live "forever".

This next thought is not my own, but I would like to share it. I trust the author will not mind my doing so. It is part of a conversation about this topic:

Intriquing. I wonder if that is where the memories of past lives comes from. Our bits and pieces might hold memories of where they have been.

Maybe like us they still hold memories. I think I heard once that our bodies or parts record our experiences in them.

Like our hair will hold a chemical record of what we have eaten or taken in as medicines.

A collective memory as part of the earth. Like your finger is part of you, you are part of the earth. Very intriquing.

BTW. I find it very plausible that it all came out of "nothing", I see in my own garden that a little bit of DNA coding, linked with energy, transforms the raw materials of the earth into MORE OF SOMETHING in the form of flowers and veggies and plant bodies. You should see my compost pile! Not to mention all the food that goes into my own body, thus furthering the cycle.

How it all works is for us all the great MYSTERY. Religions and philosophers and physicists are all attempting to explain it somehow. If you would like to think of it in terms that embrace the idea of a CREATOR who is a Father Being of some sort and who made the whole thing up magically or however, then that is fine by me. I do admit that I prefer the idea of natural means, whowever it occurred, to metaphysical or magical explanations. To each his own, eh?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by srm+Jul 16 2004, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Jul 16 2004, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Jul 15 2004, 09:42 AM

I have to say I feel a bit judged here.  But that's what I get for coming to an LDS board when I'm not LDS!

when you toss such a question or view out why are you suprised that we might scrutinize it? In order to come to an opinion we have to ask and make, well, judgements.

So what happened with you, srm?  Did you personally see the face of God as he told you it was true?  Wow, guess I missed out!

No, but I've received and continue to receive a witness of the spirit that is as clear as seeing his face. You're right, you missed out. But it is never too late.

Do you realize that some people leave your church and others because they have not had the 'slap in the face' kind of witness that you speak of? Not me, personally, but I know of several who have. They think it's normal and that they are unworthy because God didn't speak to them the way that He seems to speak to so many.

Just wondering if you realize how you come across.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by bizabra@Jul 16 2004, 10:54 AM

To each his own, eh?

Exactly!

[Faerie]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jul 16 2004, 07:24 AM

don't really see the relelvance in knowing God's opinion

Then what is the point of your mormon faith?

way to take one minute thing out of my entire post and make a dig about it...

i was referencing to THIS SUBJECT AT HAND...you know..the original post...that's what people do, they comment on THE ORIGINAL IDEA instead of going off on tangents about afterlife and whether the big bang ever happened...

and i guess i'm going to have to quote myself here since you like to take what i say out of context:

don't really see the relelvance in knowing God's opinion...we don't know it...we can think we FEEL it through prayer and fasting....but God Himself is not going to come down on the earth and write "why I let small children suffer" on stone tablets anytime soon...

we don't know what God's opinion on "why children are allowed to be raped and tortured and starved to death, etc etc etc" so what is the relevance in you asking if we know God's opinion??? unless you've found some magical scripture or some angel came down to you and said "lo and behold i am the angel of the Lord coming to you Trident to share God's opinion on this thread's subject matter..listen and be heard" you don't know it either..so why stir the pot?

now there are MANY MANY MANY instances where we DO know God's opinion on certain subject matter ala the scriptures...but obviously we're not talking about something that has relevance in the scriptures, therefore we do not know...

so get over yourself and stop taking my comments out of context and turning it into a dig of our church..it's an old tactic and frankly, things were nice and relatively peaceful around here while you were gone....

[srm]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jul 16 2004, 09:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jul 16 2004, 09:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@Jul 16 2004, 09:56 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Jul 15 2004, 09:42 AM

I have to say I feel a bit judged here.  But that's what I get for coming to an LDS board when I'm not LDS!

when you toss such a question or view out why are you suprised that we might scrutinize it? In order to come to an opinion we have to ask and make, well, judgements.

So what happened with you, srm?  Did you personally see the face of God as he told you it was true?  Wow, guess I missed out!

No, but I've received and continue to receive a witness of the spirit that is as clear as seeing his face. You're right, you missed out. But it is never too late.

Do you realize that some people leave your church and others because they have not had the 'slap in the face' kind of witness that you speak of? Not me, personally, but I know of several who have. They think it's normal and that they are unworthy because God didn't speak to them the way that He seems to speak to so many.

Just wondering if you realize how you come across.

Where did I say anything about a slap in the face experience? People stay or leave the Church for a variety of reasons. Hopefully they are pricked in the heart as Peter said and then they continue to nourish their testimonies like Alma said. IYHO, how do I come across?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by srm@Jul 16 2004, 12:47 PM

IYHO, how do I come across?

With this post, I'm attempting to show you that you come across as thinking of yourself as spiritually superior. I personally don't believe you are. Even though I don't have it all figured out, and I'm not sure I ever will, I do have some strong beliefs that are no more wrong than your's (based on what we know now).

srm: "So you didn't receive a witness of the spirit that the Gospel was true? It just sounded good?"

Who are you to question why I joined? I thought that the good feeling I got about it all WAS a spiritually prompting. Now I think I misinterpreted that. I think that the PART I HEARD sounded good, but I didn't have enough info to make an informed decision.

srm: "when you toss such a question or view out why are you suprised that we might scrutinize it? In order to come to an opinion we have to ask and make, well, judgements."

I disagree that you or anyone else needs to judge me because of a question I asked.

srm: "No, but I've received and continue to receive a witness of the spirit that is as clear as seeing his face. You're right, you missed out. But it is never too late."

My guess is that you are one of the VERY few. I think many people of all faiths receive a witness of the truth, but not 'as clear as seeing His face. Just MHO.

srm: "Where did I say anything about a slap in the face experience? People stay or leave the Church for a variety of reasons. Hopefully they are pricked in the heart as Peter said and then they continue to nourish their testimonies like Alma said. IYHO, how do I come across?"

I'm equating 'slap in the face' with 'as clear as seeing his face'.

[Ray]

I'm new here, but I noticed your spirit in your posts. I don't post I just lurk and sometimes send a pm for a personal one on one discussion.

I noticed on the "Why would God allow" thread, Kevin posted this:

This doesn't mean that god won't answer our prayers - he does, just not usually in some dramatic fashion. Section 9 of the Doctrine and Covenants, specifically verses 8 and 9 present a simple little pattern to follow concerning receiving answers to prayer.

What do you think about Moroni 10:4-5 in fashions of praying? Is there more than one way to pray or receive an answer?

I received a private message from a person who I will consider to be too shy to post on these message boards, and I am placing my response on the board so that everybody can see it. For future notice to EVERYBODY, please do not send me any private messages in which you would like to get a response.

A private message containing a “Thank you”, however, is always welcome. :)

I’m not sure what was meant by “Moroni 10:4-5 in fashions of praying”, so I’ll share what I think about what Moroni was saying in that passage of scripture.

And actually, it would be better to begin with verse 1:

NOW I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Verse 1 tells us that Moroni was writing what seemed good to him to his brothers the Lamanites about 420 years after a sign concerning the coming of Christ.

Note what Moroni said he was writing – what seemed good to him, and who he was writing to – his brothers the Lamanites.

Verse 2 tells us that Moroni was going to seal up “those” records after he had said what seemed good to him.

From this I understand that Moroni was referring to the records he was writing as well as all the other records he had, which were given to him by his father, Mormon. As you may or may not know, the “Book of Mormon” is only a fraction of all of those records.

Verse 3 tells us that he was exhorting his brothers the Lamanites to remember how merciful the Lord had been unto the children of men since the creation of Adam until the time that [the Lamanites] would receive “these” things, expecting that they would read those things if it was God’s wisdom that they should read those things, also exhorting them to ponder [those things] in their hearts.

Note the 3 things Moroni was exhorting or expecting the Lamanites to do: receive the records, read them, and ponder them in their hearts.

It seems that Moroni may have been expecting that the Lamanites would receive all of the records that he buried in the Earth, ”if it was wisdom in God that they should receive them”, but we now know that it was wisdom in God to deliver only some of those records to them. Whatever else that was written on those other records was reserved to come forth at a later time, and if it is wisdom in God, the Lamanites will receive them then. Btw, the Lamanites received the portion of the records they received through the missionary efforts of the Church.

Verse 4 then tells us that Moroni was exhorting the Lamanites to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, about whether or not those “records” are true, saying that if they asked with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, that Christ would manifest the truth of “those records” to them by the power of the Holy Ghost.

That’s quite a statement, don’t you think? And quite a promise!

Note the conditions for that promise and what was promised.

The conditions:

1) Ask

2) Ask who? - God the Eternal Father in the name of Christ

3) Ask what? – if the records they received, read, and pondered were true

4) Ask how? – with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ

The promise:

1) They will receive

2) Receive what? - the truth

2) By who? – God the Eternal Father

3) How? – by the power of the Holy Ghost

Verse 5 tells us that, according to Moroni, the Lamanites may know the truth of all things by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Now, regarding what I think about what Moroni was saying, I will say that I think Moroni gave some excellent counsel regarding how to pray. But notice that Moroni gave this counsel specifically to his brothers, the Lamanites.

Does that mean that his promise doesn’t apply to us, or to those of us who are not Lamanites? I say Yes. Moroni made that promise only to the Lamanites, so the Lamanites are the only ones who have a claim on that promise.

But notice Verse 24, where Moroni begins talking to the ends of the Earth.

And notice Verse 27, where he exhorts us to remember these things, saying there would be a time when we will know that these words of Moroni are not a lie, when the Lord God will ask us about these words He declared unto us, which were written by Moroni.

And notice Verse 29, where Moroni says that God will show us that the words of Moroni are true.

Does that mean that those of us who are not Lamanites don’t have any way to know whether or not these things are true until that time? I say No, because this same promise has essentially been given to the ends of the Earth by other people.

Regarding your other question, about whether or not there is more than one way to pray or receive an answer, I will say No, not if your intent is to pray to God and receive an answer from Him.

To pray to God we must pray through Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ offers the only way to approach God. Does that mean that God does not hear people who pray in some other way? No, but if a person prays in some other way, God will send people or reveal His will through people to better instruct everybody regarding how to pray, and regarding who they should be praying to.

Praying to a false god doesn’t do anybody any good, so God will try to remedy that situation as quick as He can.

[srm]

Originally posted by srm@Jul 16 2004, 12:47 PM

IYHO, how do I come across?

With this post, I'm attempting to show you that you come across as thinking of yourself as spiritually superior. I personally don't believe you are. Even though I don't have it all figured out, and I'm not sure I ever will, I do have some strong beliefs that are no more wrong than your's (based on what we know now).

maybe we should define our terms. When you say spirtually superior, what do you mean? is it a pejorative term?

srm: "So you didn't receive a witness of the spirit that the Gospel was true? It just sounded good?"

Who are you to question why I joined?  I thought that the good feeling I got about it all WAS a spiritually prompting.  Now I think I misinterpreted that.  I think that the PART I HEARD sounded good, but I didn't have enough info to make an informed decision.

When you lay information re: your life on a public bulletin board people are gonna ask questions. so who am? Just an interested party. I don't mean to make you mad. but expect to questions on any such BB. In the book od acts peter baptized them after they received a wittness of the spirit that it was true. He felt that the witness from God was suffcient.

srm: "when you toss such a question or view out why are you suprised that we might scrutinize it? In order to come to an opinion we have to ask and make, well, judgements."

I disagree that you or anyone else needs to judge me because of a question I asked.

I don't think I'm judging you. I'm evaluating what you say and making a judgment but not judgeing you. here's another judgement...It seems yiou have a little chip on your shoulder

srm: "No, but I've received and continue to receive a witness of the spirit that is as clear as seeing his face. You're right, you missed out. But it is never too late."

My guess is that you are one of the VERY few.  I think many people of all faiths receive a witness of the truth, but not 'as clear as seeing His face.  Just MHO.

I disagree with your judgement of me. In fact I think I'm one of many.

srm: "Where did I say anything about a slap in the face experience? People stay or leave the Church for a variety of reasons. Hopefully they are pricked in the heart as Peter said and then they continue to nourish their testimonies like Alma said. IYHO, how do I come across?"

I'm equating 'slap in the face' with 'as clear as seeing his face'.

OK

[porterrockwell]

First off we shouldn't have to see his face, why then is faith needed? We are cut off from our Father in heaven because of our fallen state. This probationary period is an opportunity to search out our Father in Heaven through prayer, fasting, and pondering and act according to the confirmation we recieve. We are here to prove our loyalty to our Heavenly Father and gain a change in heart that will allow us to dwell with him.

One thing that is popular in weight lifting(I am a physical fitness kamikaze freak when it comes to the gym) and personal training, is fatigue and pain are weakness leaving the body. It is the same thing with life, trials, suffering, pressure..all are things that make us stronger and withdraw our weaknesses, and through faith in Christ and perserverance we are brought through the refiners fire by our Savior until the dross is cleared and we are as pure as that of Celestial Gold, worthy to stand before our Heavenly Father at the great day of Judgement and recieve a mansion in the house of our Father with the opportunity to be glorified as he is.

I guess for me, this has always been easy to grasp, so if I seem a little cocky, or insensitive toward those who cannot accept this or who have a hard time understanding it, it's not that I am trying to be rude. This stuff just comes as second nature to me and part of what I am working on is working on others' levels when engaging in dialogue.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Jul 16 2004, 02:38 PM

First off we shouldn't have to see his face, why then is faith needed? We are cut off from our Father in heaven because of our fallen state. This probationary period is an opportunity to search out our Father in Heaven through prayer, fasting, and pondering and act according to the confirmation we recieve. We are here to prove our loyalty to our Heavenly Father and gain a change in heart that will allow us to dwell with him.

One thing that is popular in weight lifting(I am a physical fitness kamikaze freak when it comes to the gym) and personal training, is fatigue and pain are weakness leaving the body. It is the same thing with life, trials, suffering, pressure..all are things that make us stronger and withdraw our weaknesses, and through faith in Christ and perserverance we are brought through the refiners fire by our Savior until the dross is cleared and we are as pure as that of Celestial Gold, worthy to stand before our Heavenly Father at the great day of Judgement and recieve a mansion in the house of our Father with the opportunity to be glorified as he is.

I guess for me, this has always been easy to grasp, so if I seem a little cocky, or insensitive toward those who cannot accept this or who have a hard time understanding it, it's not that I am trying to be rude. This stuff just comes as second nature to me and part of what I am working on is working on others' levels when engaging in dialogue.

Thanks for bringing yourself down to a level that we can understand. I think I speak for all of us when I say that we appreciate it!

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by srm+Jul 16 2004, 02:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Jul 16 2004, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Jul 16 2004, 12:47 PM

IYHO, how do I come across?

With this post, I'm attempting to show you that you come across as thinking of yourself as spiritually superior. I personally don't believe you are. Even though I don't have it all figured out, and I'm not sure I ever will, I do have some strong beliefs that are no more wrong than your's (based on what we know now).

maybe we should define our terms. When you say spirtually superior, what do you mean? is it a pejorative term?

srm: "So you didn't receive a witness of the spirit that the Gospel was true? It just sounded good?"

Who are you to question why I joined?  I thought that the good feeling I got about it all WAS a spiritually prompting.  Now I think I misinterpreted that.  I think that the PART I HEARD sounded good, but I didn't have enough info to make an informed decision.

When you lay information re: your life on a public bulletin board people are gonna ask questions. so who am? Just an interested party. I don't mean to make you mad. but expect to questions on any such BB. In the book od acts peter baptized them after they received a wittness of the spirit that it was true. He felt that the witness from God was suffcient.

srm: "when you toss such a question or view out why are you suprised that we might scrutinize it? In order to come to an opinion we have to ask and make, well, judgements."

I disagree that you or anyone else needs to judge me because of a question I asked.

I don't think I'm judging you. I'm evaluating what you say and making a judgment but not judgeing you. here's another judgement...It seems yiou have a little chip on your shoulder

srm: "No, but I've received and continue to receive a witness of the spirit that is as clear as seeing his face. You're right, you missed out. But it is never too late."

My guess is that you are one of the VERY few.  I think many people of all faiths receive a witness of the truth, but not 'as clear as seeing His face.  Just MHO.

I disagree with your judgement of me. In fact I think I'm one of many.

srm: "Where did I say anything about a slap in the face experience? People stay or leave the Church for a variety of reasons. Hopefully they are pricked in the heart as Peter said and then they continue to nourish their testimonies like Alma said. IYHO, how do I come across?"

I'm equating 'slap in the face' with 'as clear as seeing his face'.

OK

No offense intended srm. Lets move on. I respect your beliefs, and I hope you can respect mine.

[srm]

No offense intended srm.  Lets move on.  I respect your beliefs, and I hope you can respect mine.

Ok Shandress...but FWIW, people are gonna question and sometimes challenge what you say here. that is what makes this board interesting.

[Shaydie]

I don't know if this is true... but it's been explained to me before that bad things have to happen so that those who do them can be punished, and that they can hopefully repent and stop doing these things. It's really sad to see innocent children be hurt. I'm so sad for them!

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Shaydie@Jul 17 2004, 03:17 AM

I don't know if this is true... but it's been explained to me before that bad things have to happen so that those who do them can be punished, and that they can hopefully repent and stop doing these things. It's really sad to see innocent children be hurt. I'm so sad for them!

We are all born with 2 major things...weakness and agency(among others the light of christ also). "Bad things" are a result of one exercising their agency in a manner unbecoming of the that light and giving into weakness. I like plainness, I think sometimes as human beings in our "quest" for knowledge we dig a little to deep and miss the real reasons and meanings of lifes occurances and questions.