Why Does God Allow This?

[Guest bizabra]

Bad things happen to innocents because of choices made by others or because accidents happen. There is no Satan to tempt anyone and no God to save (or not save) anyone.

Humans act maliciously or ignorantly all on their own, without the need for an outside evil force or being of any sort. The "evil" or "wickedness" or plain old stupidity evinced by some humans is enacted by the humans themselves. We all choose our behaviour once we are capable of actually making choices.

Humans also act benevolently and unselfishly, all on their own, by deciding for themselves that they wish to behave thusly.

People have the capacity for both WITHIN, no need for external forces or beings to prompt us either for good or ill.

We CHOOSE.

Oh, and BTW, when our bodies die, then the human lives they embodied will then also cease to exist. We ARE our bodies, we do not "inhabit" them. When our body dies, WE die. Finito. This is all we got, folks, so choose how you will live and then live it fully.

[Faerie]

What a depressing way to look at life....

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Snow@Jul 14 2004, 10:40 PM

I just taught a whole priesthood lesson on this topic: Theodicy - the problem of evil - pondering divine justice:

How can a God who is powerful (or all-powerful - a god who can do anything) and a God who is benevolent (a god who want to do the right things) allow evil or such suffering to occur. Indeed, how can God, the creator of all things, have created evil?

Fortunately Joseph Smith solved that dilemna (or tri-lemna) with the doctrine that man is eternal and his essence ("intelligence") was not created by God.

Since the topic had nothing to do with the lesson in the manual, I missed some guy off who doesn't like the intellectual non-manual stuff. I think he may tell the Bishop on me if I keep it up.

That's interesting, Snow.

Someone else off of this board suggested that perhaps God is loving, but not omnipotent. I will try to find out more about this, as it is the only explanation that somehow makes sense to me.

My biggest problem with the free agency explanation is that it seems like you are seeing babies as merely instruments through which we may exercise our free agency. And in my opinion, if God can stop it and doesn't, regardless of the reason, he isn't as loving and caring as I like to think he is.

[Spencer]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jul 14 2004, 04:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jul 14 2004, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Kevin@Jul 14 2004, 03:07 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Jul 14 2004, 11:15 AM

Who here has actually asked God why.... and waited patiently for an answer?

Good point. Shantress has already decided that there is no answer so I don't expect that she'll be getting one from God.

Thanks Kev! Very nice of you. I haven't decided there is no answer, but I'm just getting frustrated trying to figure out what it is. And yes, I've prayed about it a lot.

On another note, I understand the thing about free agency, but free agency to the point of committing atrocities toward children without stepping in to help?

I guess I will stop here. I chose to ask this at the wrong place since I don't believe in LDS doctrine. Although I don't really think it can be answered on any message board. Hopefully I'll figure it out eventually, with the help of God. Or maybe I'll never know until I die... if then.

I'm glad some of you have it figured out.

Shannon, I dont doubt you or mean to attack you. But I wonder if you ever believed in LDS doctrine? Why did you join the church?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Spencer@Jul 15 2004, 07:31 AM

Shannon, I dont doubt you or mean to attack you. But I wonder if you ever believed in LDS doctrine? Why did you join the church?

In the beginning, I didn't explore the deeper issues. I had a simplistic view of Mormonism - like the missionaries share with you. Missionaries don't bring up the bigger issues, like polygamy. It just all sounded so good. After a couple months of being baptized, I really started thinking about things, and I had some problems with a lot of things. I never got answers that I agreed with. I thought I could still be a member and still disagree with many points. But slowly my belief started to waver. I really wanted to believe, but I kind of felt like I wasn't being true to myself. After so long , I just faced the reality that I didn't believe. In retrospect, I should have researched it more thoroughly before I joined. But I was younger and a bit more carefree then!

[srm]

  It just all sounded so good.

So you didn't receive a witness of the spirit that the Gospel was true? I just sounded good?

[Kevin]

Thanks Kev!  Very nice of you.  I haven't decided there is no answer, but I'm just getting frustrated trying to figure out what it is.  And yes, I've prayed about it a lot.

Easy there sister. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm simply commenting on what you said. You did say:

I will never understand.   &

I realize I'm wasting you guys' time because there are no answers to this.

If you haven't decided there is no answer why did you say these things? My point (and Trident's point) was that if you don't believe that there is an answer, you're not likely to be asking God for an answer with enough faith to actually receive an answer.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by bizabra@Jul 14 2004, 10:27 PM

Bad things happen to innocents because of choices made by others or because accidents happen. There is no Satan to tempt anyone and no God to save (or not save) anyone.

Humans act maliciously or ignorantly all on their own, without the need for an outside evil force or being of any sort. The "evil" or "wickedness" or plain old stupidity evinced by some humans is enacted by the humans themselves. We all choose our behaviour once we are capable of actually making choices.

Humans also act benevolently and unselfishly, all on their own, by deciding for themselves that they wish to behave thusly.

People have the capacity for both WITHIN, no need for external forces or beings to prompt us either for good or ill.

We CHOOSE.

Oh, and BTW, when our bodies die, then the human lives they embodied will then also cease to exist. We ARE our bodies, we do not "inhabit" them. When our body dies, WE die. Finito. This is all we got, folks, so choose how you will live and then live it fully.

Just for any who may not be familiar with LDS doctrine, the above, posted by Bizbara is not LDS doctrine. LDS doctrine regarding the matter is that there is indeed a Satan. Her post reminded me of the following from the Book of Mormon:

2 Nephi 28:22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.   

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

When we die, that is not the end as Biz has stated. When we die our spirits depart our mortal bodies and at some point we will be judged:

Alma 40: 11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by srm@Jul 15 2004, 09:46 AM

  It just all sounded so good.

So you didn't receive a witness of the spirit that the Gospel was true? I just sounded good?

Religion is a very subjective thing. Of course I looked at things such as being with your family forever as pleasant. I guess I assumed that those pleasant feelings were the spirit telling me it was true. I have said in a previous post that I never really had a testimony. Nothing really happened to me that was like a slap in the face. Guess everyone else has. But I'm sure that's all my fault somehow. I wasn't living righteously enough or something.

I have to say I feel a bit judged here. But that's what I get for coming to an LDS board when I'm not LDS!

So what happened with you, srm? Did you personally see the face of God as he told you it was true? Wow, guess I missed out!

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Kevin@Jul 15 2004, 10:39 AM

Easy there sister. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm simply commenting on what you said. You did say:

I will never understand.   &

I realize I'm wasting you guys' time because there are no answers to this.

If you haven't decided there is no answer why did you say these things? My point (and Trident's point) was that if you don't believe that there is an answer, you're not likely to be asking God for an answer with enough faith to actually receive an answer.

True, I did say those things. Guess I was a bit down and out about it yesterday. I'm not perfect; not by a long shot!

I have prayed about it, and will continue to. But I have to say that this is one of those questions that people have always asked. And they haven't been answered to most. The only ones I can see who seem OK with the whole subject are LDS. And, again, I don't agree with the LDS explanation.

[Jason]

"Is this a trick question Jason? Did I say something wrong?"

No, Snow. It just got me thinking.....thanks.

[Tr2]

Is there anybody here who is actually concerned with God's opinion? I've been reading this pretty closely and it doesn't appear so.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jul 15 2004, 01:00 PM

Is there anybody here who is actually concerned with God's opinion? I've been reading this pretty closely and it doesn't appear so.

Eh? Where do you get that from?

People in this thread are talking about praying about the subject, looking in the scriptures, etc. I guess most folk do not expect a personal visit from the Big Guy himself to ask him face to face. So they are doing what they can, read, ponder, pray and discuss with like minded folks.

Do you expect something else?

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jul 15 2004, 01:00 PM

Is there anybody here who is actually concerned with God's opinion? I've been reading this pretty closely and it doesn't appear so.

I said ask God's council if you yourself are having troubles and I got burned at the stake Tr2. Somehow, a great deal on this board think that getting down on your knees and praying means you can't think for yourself.

[shanstress70]

Not sure if your comments are directed at me TR2 and PR, but I've stated several times that I've prayed and prayed about it. How else can one get God's opinion if they aren't as fortunate as some on here who seem to have been told personally by God?

And if you're not talking to me, I don't see how you could say that about others here.

WHAT-EVAH!

[Kevin]

Shantress, I've never had any overwhelming response to prayer (slap in the face, visitation of angels, etc.). In my mind those sorts of witnesses come after the trial of our faith. When we're willing to believe and when we choose to believe even though we don't understand everything or have answers to all our questions, it is only then that God gives us the manifestation type witnesses.

This doesn't mean that god won't answer our prayers - he does, just not usually in some dramatic fashion. Section 9 of the Doctrine and Covenants, specifically verses 8 and 9 present a simple little pattern to follow concerning receiving answers to prayer.

With regard to your initial question I think agency is the only reasonable answer. Without it our entire purpose on the earth would be for not. Yes, it is terrible in the extreme that so many innocents have to suffer as they do but I don't see any other way. Jesus suffered for the sins of all and not just our sins but also all the pain and sicknesses that we suffer. Why? so he could then help us as we go through those things as well. I think that when asking this question of yours (and I think its a great question) one must remember Jesus' role in the Atonement. He knows of the suffering of all who suffer because he's suffered itthe same things. Through Christ, all of these things can and eventually will be overcome. While I can't give you much better of an answer, it might be advisable for you to place your faith in Jesus Christ until such time God deicdes to enlighten you further on this question. Patience and faith in Christ will see you through.

[Faerie]

hmmmm....has God himself come down to you trident and said "trident ole' buddy, here's MY opinion"??

no..but there HAVE been expressions of what we'd THINK God's opinion would be ala:

i have a good imagination, and i have a good feeling that it really pains God when He sees that kind of crap going on, but perhaps He is unable to intervene...*shrug*

As a Christian, all I can say is that it motivates me to prayer. It also motivates me to action, so that I will help people that normally I would not help. Perhaps that's reason enough for God.

Shanstress has a valid argument for which even God has not given a good answer.

don't really see the relelvance in knowing God's opinion...we don't know it...we can think we FEEL it through prayer and fasting....but God Himself is not going to come down on the earth and write "why I let small children suffer" on stone tablets anytime soon...

so it's left up to US to ponder, pray and form an opinion and live our lives based on that opinion whether it be right or not...

[Guest lt]

Shanstress,

There is nothing wrong with you other than your as normal as a bluebird We all question different things through different parts of our lives, it's a never ending cycle and its how we grow and learn... We can all just hang around and grow and learn together.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jul 15 2004, 06:21 PM

don't really see the relelvance in knowing God's opinion...we don't know it...we can think we FEEL it through prayer and fasting....but God Himself is not going to come down on the earth and write "why I let small children suffer" on stone tablets anytime soon...

so it's left up to US to ponder, pray and form an opinion and live our lives based on that opinion whether it be right or not...

Thank you, Faerie. Stated beautifully!

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by LaurelTree@Jul 15 2004, 07:22 PM

Shanstress,

There is nothing wrong with you other than your as normal as a bluebird We all question different things through different parts of our lives, it's a never ending cycle and its how we grow and learn... We can all just hang around and grow and learn together.

Thanks for the reassurances, LT. It helps to know that I'm not the only one that doesn't have it all figured out... or believe to have it all figured out.

[Snow]

Originally posted by yaanufs+Jul 15 2004, 12:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yaanufs @ Jul 15 2004, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Jul 15 2004, 01:00 PM

Is there anybody here who is actually concerned with God's opinion? I've been reading this pretty closely and it doesn't appear so.

Eh? Where do you get that from?

Apparently he intends to tell God and us what Gods opinion is going to be.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jul 15 2004, 02:12 AM

What a depressing way to look at life....

NOT depressing in the least! I embrace life and make the most of it while it lasts.

Why do you find my philosophy to be depressing? I am curious why.

Your philosophy works for you, helping you to be a better person, a better citizen, sibling, child, partner, friend, worker, etc. doesn't it? Well, my philsophy does that for me, too. I feel more inspired to be a better human because of my beliefs. Not depressing, but inspiring.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by bizabra+Jul 16 2004, 01:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jul 16 2004, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@Jul 15 2004, 02:12 AM

What a depressing way to look at life....

NOT depressing in the least! I embrace life and make the most of it while it lasts.

Why do you find my philosophy to be depressing? I am curious why.

Your philosophy works for you, helping you to be a better person, a better citizen, sibling, child, partner, friend, worker, etc. doesn't it? Well, my philsophy does that for me, too. I feel more inspired to be a better human because of my beliefs. Not depressing, but inspiring.

I do understand where you're coming from, Bizabra, and I respect your opinion. I also agree with you that your beliefs result in your making the most of life here and now, and trying to do all you can to help and make a difference while you're here, since you think this is all you get. I've heard that argument a lot since I'm friends with a few agnostic/atheists. I think that as a result, atheists seem to be some of the biggest humanitarians I've met - giving lots of money and time to charitable causes.

However, I have the same concern as Faerie. I would find it totally depressing to not believe in an afterlife of some type.

Also, when I look at the beauty of this earth, and the miracle of my child, I just find it impossible that it's all some accident where chaos turned into some bacteria from which cells specialized to become an entire human being with all its different organ systems, thoughts such as we're talking about, and feelings of love and hate. (Yikes, that was a long sentence!) In my opinion, that's just too much to come from sheer coincidence!

[Tr2]

don't really see the relelvance in knowing God's opinion

Then what is the point of your mormon faith?

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jul 16 2004, 05:24 AM

don't really see the relelvance in knowing God's opinion

Then what is the point of your mormon faith?

Nice dig.