Why Does God Allow This?

[shanstress70]

I know this is kind of a cliche, but something has really been bothering me, and I wanted to get others' perspectives.

As some of you know, I left the church a few months ago. I haven't, however, turned to atheism. I still consider myself a Christian, although I have some problems with the Bible. I think that's OK though, being that it is somewhat the word of man, although I believe most of it is the word of God.

My husband and I are just beginning to look into adopting a toddler. We haven't made up our minds yet, but are just starting to get the info. Some of the profiles of the children I have looked at have been heart-breaking: shaken baby syndrome has left one child severely retarded, starvation has resulted in two siblings hoarding food, several have severe problems from being addicted to crack, and I won't even get started on sexual abuse cases.

This is starting to cause me to have a crisis of faith. If God does exist, how can he let this stuff happen to children if he has the ability to stop it? I can understand Him allowing bad things happen to adults if it is related to bad choices they have made, but a 2 year old being starved? That child did nothing to deserve that!

What do you guys think?

[Setheus]

I think those children, like us, were well aware of the dangers of this world. They came here anyway out of faith and trust in God. Now if you feel compelled to adopt, perhaps this is your chance to prove that their faith was not in vain.

Does that make sence?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jul 14 2004, 08:55 AM

I think those children, like us, were well aware of the dangers of this world. They came here anyway out of faith and trust in God. Now if you feel compelled to adopt, perhaps this is your chance to prove that their faith was not in vain.

Does that make sence?

I understand your point, but I don't believe that's true. You're suggesting that someone would come here knowing that they would be raped when they're 5 years old? I don't buy it.

If that's true, then that reminds me of something someone else said on that subject. They suggested that maybe those spirits who chose to come here with mental handicaps weren't as strong, so they did that to take the easy way out and get a pass to the CK. I don't buy that either.

Thanks for your opinion though, Setheus. I like to know peoples' reasoning for why God would allow such things to happen. I am at a loss with this.

[Faerie]

shanstress i SO know your feelings and questions...

i'm famous for asking that question..and the question of "if God wants us to have children so badly, if all we're supposed to do on this earth is provide bodies for His spirit children, WHY OH WHY do crack whores get 15 kids to abuse and molest and i can't have one?!?!!?"

course now i guess i don't have a right to ask that particular question...

your question came up while Adam was investigating the church, because that's something that REALLY bothers him...and the only answer ANYONE could give us was free agency...God does not impede (very often at least) on the free agency of mankind...that includes the horrible and wicked people who do these terrible things to small children...and that the children who suffer, will be rewarded...

to my husband that sounded like a weak way out of saying "we really don't know why" and i tend to agree with him...i honestly don't think there's an answer to this...i have a good imagination, and i have a good feeling that it really pains God when He sees that kind of crap going on, but perhaps He is unable to intervene...*shrug*

I wouldn't lose your faith over this issue, because it is a great unknown as is God...I chalk it up to the list of MANY MANY things I have to have a word w/ the Big Man when it's my time to pass through the veil...

I think it is wonderful you guys are pursuing adoption of a toddler :) I still say in my heart that we will adopt, even though I'm pregnant...so many kids need loving homes, especially the older ones!!

Best of luck!!

[Spencer]

Lets not forget Satan has power too, the power of temptation is very strong. And one who does not call upon their father in Heaven for help in these times of temptation only weaken themselves.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jul 14 2004, 11:12 AM

God does not impede (very often at least) on the free agency of mankind...that includes the horrible and wicked people who do these terrible things to small children...and that the children who suffer, will be rewarded...

I see your point, Faerie, and I thank you for responding. But I just can't imagine how a loving God could have the power to intervene, yet not intervene! I will never understand.

[shanstress70]

I think I may have been misleading about my intention when I started this thread. Someone sent me a message thinking that I was going to adopt one of these special needs children. I truly wish I could be so strong, but if we do it, he/she will only be a special needs child in that he/she will be a toddler (and maybe minority), as opposed to an infant. They are classified this way because it's more difficult to find a home for older ones. Although it is my heart's intent to do that, I now it isn't realistic for me.

I'm glad there are people out there who are willing to adopt the more unfortunate ones. The reason I mentioned those children is because I ran across a lot of those profiles when I was looking for info. It definitely takes a stronger person than I am to do that.

Heck, I used to cry when my son got his shots as an infant!

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Spencer@Jul 14 2004, 11:31 AM

Lets not forget Satan has power too, the power of temptation is very strong. And one who does not call upon their father in Heaven for help in these times of temptation only weaken themselves.

But Spencer, this is what I don't understand. God has power over Satan, does he not? If he has the ability to stop these atrocities, why doesn't he? Why let Satan succeed in something horrible happening to a baby if he has the power to stop him?

I realize I'm wasting you guys' time because there are no answers to this.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jul 14 2004, 08:55 AM

I think those children, like us, were well aware of the dangers of this world. They came here anyway out of faith and trust in God. Now if you feel compelled to adopt, perhaps this is your chance to prove that their faith was not in vain.

Does that make sence?

Hi Setheus,

Your post made me think of another question. If you believe this, do you also believe that those children who are in good, loving homes were somehow less valiant in the spirit world? It seems logical that you believe this.

Just curious!

[Jason]

As a Christian, all I can say is that it motivates me to prayer. It also motivates me to action, so that I will help people that normally I would not help. Perhaps that's reason enough for God. Who knows.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jul 14 2004, 09:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jul 14 2004, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Setheus@Jul 14 2004, 08:55 AM

I think those children, like us, were well aware of the dangers of this world.  They came here anyway out of faith and trust in God.  Now if you feel compelled to adopt, perhaps this is your chance to prove that their faith was not in vain.

Does that make sence?

I understand your point, but I don't believe that's true. You're suggesting that someone would come here knowing that they would be raped when they're 5 years old? I don't buy it.

If that's true, then that reminds me of something someone else said on that subject. They suggested that maybe those spirits who chose to come here with mental handicaps weren't as strong, so they did that to take the easy way out and get a pass to the CK. I don't buy that either.

Thanks for your opinion though, Setheus. I like to know peoples' reasoning for why God would allow such things to happen. I am at a loss with this.

I didn't say they knew the spicifics of their life. I said they KNEW the dangers (very broad use) of this life. We know "hell " will suck and "heaven" will be awsome. I don't know the specifics anymore than I knew about this place from my first estate.

[Tr2]

Who here has actually asked God why.... and waited patiently for an answer?

[Spencer]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jul 14 2004, 01:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jul 14 2004, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Spencer@Jul 14 2004, 11:31 AM

Lets not forget Satan has power too, the power of temptation is very strong. And one who does not call upon their father in Heaven for help in these times of temptation only weaken themselves.

But Spencer, this is what I don't understand. God has power over Satan, does he not? If he has the ability to stop these atrocities, why doesn't he? Why let Satan succeed in something horrible happening to a baby if he has the power to stop him?

I realize I'm wasting you guys' time because there are no answers to this.

Free Agency.

[srm]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jul 14 2004, 10:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jul 14 2004, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Setheus@Jul 14 2004, 08:55 AM

I think those children, like us, were well aware of the dangers of this world.  They came here anyway out of faith and trust in God.  Now if you feel compelled to adopt, perhaps this is your chance to prove that their faith was not in vain.

Does that make sence?

Hi Setheus,

Your post made me think of another question. If you believe this, do you also believe that those children who are in good, loving homes were somehow less valiant in the spirit world? It seems logical that you believe this.

Just curious!

Alma 14

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jul 14 2004, 11:15 AM

Who here has actually asked God why.... and waited patiently for an answer?

Good point. Shantress has already decided that there is no answer so I don't expect that she'll be getting one from God.

[Jason]

Free Agency, the promise of glory and just punishment on the wicked, or a warm fuzzy simply are not sufficient for most people.

Shanstress has a valid argument for which even God has not given a good answer. I'd give her a break.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Kevin+Jul 14 2004, 03:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kevin @ Jul 14 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Jul 14 2004, 11:15 AM

Who here has actually asked God why.... and waited patiently for an answer?

Good point. Shantress has already decided that there is no answer so I don't expect that she'll be getting one from God.

Thanks Kev! Very nice of you. I haven't decided there is no answer, but I'm just getting frustrated trying to figure out what it is. And yes, I've prayed about it a lot.

On another note, I understand the thing about free agency, but free agency to the point of committing atrocities toward children without stepping in to help?

I guess I will stop here. I chose to ask this at the wrong place since I don't believe in LDS doctrine. Although I don't really think it can be answered on any message board. Hopefully I'll figure it out eventually, with the help of God. Or maybe I'll never know until I die... if then.

I'm glad some of you have it figured out.

[Jason]

good luck shan.

[Guest lt]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jul 14 2004, 09:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jul 14 2004, 09:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@Jul 14 2004, 11:12 AM

God does not impede (very often at least) on the free agency of mankind...that includes the horrible and wicked people who do these terrible things to small children...and that the children who suffer, will be rewarded...

I see your point, Faerie, and I thank you for responding. But I just can't imagine how a loving God could have the power to intervene, yet not intervene! I will never understand.

Shanstress,

God has put good people in these childrens lives, and yes sometimes it's after the fact and sometimes its before the fact.......If we all did our part do you think these children would still be in the types of homes they are in? No! of course not.....However you were blessed with the ability to love any child, some people cannot do that. Just look at it as a blessing for you and this child, you will both give each other something you both need to grow ( true unconditional love), and he/she will be blessed most of all by recieving a loving parent who might have more patience and love to share for them than most parents have to give. I try to look at the glass half full rather than have empty. See the lord is not responsible for everything that occures in this world, we tend to forget satan has a very strong influence here as well and it's satan who creates hurt, anger, frustration, pain,resentment,torture,anguish etc.........The lord's job is to help us get through it, with his love and his grace.

just my wierd thoughts....

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 14 2004, 03:30 PM

good luck shan.

Thanks!

[Nina]

I guess this thread is about done but I would like to respond ... I had that very questionyou posed above (Shanstress) as I investigated the church some 10 years ago. I couldn't understand how a loving Heavenly Father would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen, or slavery, or why my own personal history was so horrendous ... God loves his children right? I thought and I prayed about it and I asked many people within and without the LDS Church. I don't think there is a cut and dry answer but I came to understand a couple of things 1) There is a God, I don't know why he does what he does but God does exist. 2) Bad things happen because we have agency. We have to be allowed our agency even if it prompts (and by prompts I am in no way inferring the Holy Ghost is involved!!!) us to do truly horrible things. If people were only ALLOWED to do good things then it wouldn't really be a probationary period here on this earth (as I believe though I understand you do not neccesarily believe the same). It wouldn't be about choices it would be about doing what we were told ... satan's plan. and 3)I cannot say that I have enjoyed some of the things that have happened to me, in fact I have hated a lot of what I can remember of my childhood, but truthfully I have learned from it and I rock as a mother because of it !!!! I would not say that all that awfull stuff HAD to happen for me to turn out right but I do know that Heavenly Father dealt me my parents for a reason.

[Snow]

I just taught a whole priesthood lesson on this topic: Theodicy - the problem of evil - pondering divine justice:

How can a God who is powerful (or all-powerful - a god who can do anything) and a God who is benevolent (a god who want to do the right things) allow evil or such suffering to occur. Indeed, how can God, the creator of all things, have created evil?

Fortunately Joseph Smith solved that dilemna (or tri-lemna) with the doctrine that man is eternal and his essence ("intelligence") was not created by God.

Since the topic had nothing to do with the lesson in the manual, I missed some guy off who doesn't like the intellectual non-manual stuff. I think he may tell the Bishop on me if I keep it up.

[Jason]

"Fortunately Joseph Smith solved that dilemna (or tri-lemna) with the doctrine that man is eternal and his essence ("intelligence") was not created by God."

Snow, can you give me the reference for that?

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Spencer@Jul 14 2004, 10:31 AM

Lets not forget Satan has power too, the power of temptation is very strong. And one who does not call upon their father in Heaven for help in these times of temptation only weaken themselves.

Amen, life is that we may know temptation and opposition, and prove our loyalty to the our Heavenly Father. These mortal tabernacles will become immortal, incorruptable vessels someday through the power of resurrection. Without evil there is no good, with darkness there is no light. I wish I could give you a testimony of this but I can't. Without sadness there is no happiness. This portion of our existance, this probationary state is but a grain of sand compared to the eternity and unending joy we have ahead.

[Snow]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 14 2004, 08:54 PM

"Fortunately Joseph Smith solved that dilemna (or tri-lemna) with the doctrine that man is eternal and his essence ("intelligence") was not created by God."

Snow, can you give me the reference for that?

Is this a trick question Jason? Did I say something wrong?

"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (LDS D&C 93:21-23.)

"The soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation.... We say that God himself is a self-existent being.... Man does exist upon the same principles.... [The Bible] does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says 'God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body.' The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself.... Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven." (King Follett Discourse)