DigitalShadow Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 So I came across an article nearly a month ago: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab - life - 09 June 2008 - New ScientistI thought it was an incredibly interesting read, but I'll sum it up for those who don't have time. Basically there has been an ongoing experiment with E. Coli over the last 20 years where they have been observed in a contained environment. Recently one population of the bacteria "evolved" the ability to metabolize citrate from accumulated mutations over more than 44,000 generations. This is the first time that evolution has ever been observed in lab conditions.Recently I heard about an exchange between the founder of Conservapedia (Andy Schlafly) and the scientist who published the paper (Richard Lenski). Another very interesting read: Conservapedia:Lenski dialog - ConservapediaI'll sum it up for you, but I still highly recomend reading it, because I doubt I could do it justice. The gist is that Shlafly is incredibly skeptical of the findings (even though he admittedly never took the time to read the paper) and implied Lenski's research was a hoax and demanded he produce 20 years worth of raw data, even though it is clear that he has no intention of doing anything with it and does not have the credentials to analyze it.This comes after Ben Stein's Expelled propaganda and quotes from him like "science leads you to killing people." So my question to the forum is, do you consider yourself conservative? and if so, do you agree with what these men are doing? Both of them identify themselves as extremely conservative, is this behavior in line with the majority of conservatives or are they out of line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azazel420 Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Well, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by conservative. Politically I'm a libertarian conservative. Religiously/philosophically I'm a freethinker with a tendency towards agnosticism and skepticism. What I think about the experiment is that if it's legitimate it's a good piece of evidence towards the feasibility of evolutionary change in a population over many generations. I think Schlafly is understandably skeptical but doesn't have the authority or training to make demands to satisfy his skepticism. There is a peer-review process for scientific discourse and the study should make it's way through that process, wasted time submitting large quantities of raw data to people with no training to do anything meaningful is a pointless exercise. What I think about Ben Stein is probably not appropriate to iterate on this board. Suffice it to say he's a parasite with little or nothing to add to the scientific process and should be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted July 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Well, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by conservative. Politically I'm a libertarian conservative. Religiously/philosophically I'm a freethinker with a tendency towards agnosticism and skepticism.What I think about the experiment is that if it's legitimate it's a good piece of evidence towards the feasibility of evolutionary change in a population over many generations. I think Schlafly is understandably skeptical but doesn't have the authority or training to make demands to satisfy his skepticism. There is a peer-review process for scientific discourse and the study should make it's way through that process, wasted time submitting large quantities of raw data to people with no training to do anything meaningful is a pointless exercise.What I think about Ben Stein is probably not appropriate to iterate on this board. Suffice it to say he's a parasite with little or nothing to add to the scientific process and should be ignored.I have no problem with being skeptical, in fact I consider myself on the skeptical side. What I take issue with is Schlafly's disrespect, both to Lenski and to the scientific process as a whole. Making broad unfounded accusations with no intent to even examine the findings before declaring them wrong is what I find most disgusting.I agree with your assessments completely and I would have thought that is how most people would react. Strangely though, I have seen many people encourage this kind of behavior and respect these men for their crusades against science. Most of the people I talk to who feel this way, consider themselves strongly conservative and toss around 'liberal' as it it were inherently an insult. I personally don't consider myself politically 'conservative' or 'liberal', but I would like to here from some of the self-proclaimed conservatives on this board as to whether they support these anti-science sentiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WANDERER Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) While peer review takes place in terms of scientific studies..I guess there is also community review. Ethics and religion are perhaps one slice of that community review...and I guess it is necessary in terms of the practical uses of science to consider use and implications. What generally does happen is that extremists on either side (conservative and liberal) contribute to the ethics debate and it generally polarises for most of the community (that is interested) into moderate views or opinions towards the pros and cons or the valid and fanciful. The public media side of science and the professional side of science are two different arenas and anyone that tends to cross it ends up looking ridiculous to either side...such as this guy demanding scientific proofs or scientists asking for scientific proof of things that are not empirical in nature (kind of in the same way that Spok's conversations with Dr Mc Coy are funny on Star Trek). Edited July 2, 2008 by WANDERER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 So my question to the forum is, do you consider yourself conservative? and if so, do you agree with what these men are doing? Both of them identify themselves as extremely conservative, is this behavior in line with the majority of conservatives or are they out of line?I do consider myself conservative, but I also understand science pretty dang well. So that affects things, for example, I know that evolution happens, and that it is the mechanism the diversity of life as we see it today. NOT the cause, but the mechanism. I think schlafly is an idiot, and Lenski really nailed him in his final response. Unicorn in the Garden! priceless. HiJolly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Interesting title: Evolution, Science and Conservatives. First I would consider myself a conservative. I vote Republican, but am really a libertarian. I am socially conservative because of my religious views but allow everyone to live as they choose. I do not believe in Darwin's "theory" but do believe that evolution occurs and doesn't contradict my religious views. I know lot's of "conservatives" that feel the same way. I think their are idiots and morons on every side (liberal and conservative) of all issues and they often make stupid comments. Science helps me gain an understanding of the complexities of this wonderful creation we call earth, I just happen to believe that this creation and evolution and all true science proves the existence of God. As for political labels........ I once considered myself a liberal. I changed as my personal values solidified, as my understanding of the role of government evolved and as I got older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 The Carp has not changed for nearly 450 million years. I would say that qualifies it as a true Conservative. The rest of us tend to evolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Interesting title: Evolution, Science and Conservatives. First I would consider myself a conservative. I vote Republican, but am really a libertarian. I am socially conservative because of my religious views but allow everyone to live as they choose. I do not believe in Darwin's "theory" but do believe that evolution occurs and doesn't contradict my religious views. I know lot's of "conservatives" that feel the same way. I think their are idiots and morons on every side (liberal and conservative) of all issues and they often make stupid comments. Science helps me gain an understanding of the complexities of this wonderful creation we call earth, I just happen to believe that this creation and evolution and all true science proves the existence of God. As for political labels........ I once considered myself a liberal. I changed as my personal values solidified, as my understanding of the role of government evolved and as I got older.I'm glad to hear that the anti-science outrage seems limited to the crazy people who get publicity for it and doesn't extend into the general public very far :) Thanks for the input from all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 The Carp has not changed for nearly 450 million years. I would say that qualifies it as a true Conservative. The rest of us tend to evolve.Don't forget the mighty cockroach. HiJolly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Don't forget the mighty cockroach. HiJolly Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookmeister Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Science is one of the tools the Lord has given us to help us understand the beauty and majesty of His creation. I suppose, if someone is anti-science, they'd better not use plastic, drive or ride in a car, go to a doctor, take modern medicines, watch TV or listen to the radio.....otherwise they're just hypocrites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 This thread is three years old Closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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