Where does morality come from?

[DigitalShadow]

Where does your sense of morality come from? I have heard many people claim that it is exclusively tied to religion which makes the implication that atheists and agnostics have no moral compass. I find that extremely hard to believe though. I know many atheists and agnostics (including myself) who have are some of the nicest people you could imagine and I also know many deeply faithful people who are complete jerks. In my experience, a person's claimed religion (or lack of) has no effect on whether or not they are a jerk.

I hold no beliefs in any deity; I don't know if there is an afterlife or some reckoning for my actions on earth, but I still behave in a civil manner and most people I meet consider me to be a very moral person based on my actions. I have general good will toward my fellow man and want other people to be happy and successful, not because I fear some punishment in the afterlife, or am trying to win favor with some deity, but because that is how I would want other people to treat me. It doesn't take doctrine or faith to realize that the world would be a better place if everyone simply treated their fellow man with some respect and didn't do anything to intentionally hurt others.

Religion is certainly one source of morality, but not the only source. I think that ultimately the culture a person is raised in and the teachings of their parents (which religion is often a subset of) determines their moral compass. Whether they follow it or not is determined by the person, but what they know in their heart to be right and wrong are instilled by a combination of culture and parenting.

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.

[bytor2112]

I agree. Much of who we will be is a direct result of our upbringing. If we are taught to be loving, caring, honest and fair by our parents(or whomever reared us)...... chances are much greater that we will turn out that way. Still that is not always the case. Plenty of bad apples come from good trees. Religion can certainly reinforce and teach morality and help shape one into the type of person that one would like to be. I guess the difference is how we define moral and what actions constitute morality. Some believe that fervently religious people are judgemental and attempt to force their brand of morality on others. While religious people feel exactly the same way, except they feel that immorality is being forced on them.

My personal belief is that we all have a conscience. We are all given the light of Christ. We know instinctively when we choose to do wrong or right. Sometimes we try to justify our actions with logic... everyone is doing it, just once is no big deal or if it feels good do it. But this line of thought will usually lead to regret. Sadly, we don't live in a very moral world in my view. There are lots of decent people trying to live a higher standard, but lots more with no standards at all. I think we have become anesthetized to just how truely immoral the world is because we have grown up seeing it. Mankind does not love each other and look after each other. We aren't very concerned by tragic events in different parts of the world, like Darfur....other than conversationally. We are consumed by "global warming" and how we are destroying the planet but not so concerned over how brutally people are treated in different parts of the world. I often wonder why things are such a mess in a time when things should be so enlightened.

[Misshalfway]

I don't think that an inner sense of morality comes from religion. I think that each one of us came to this earth with a compass inside of us. BUT.....then we come with the flesh too and its appetites and inclinations. I suppose all of us are involved in the same battle.....do we listen to the compass or the appetite? I think it is the purpose of religion to make sure the moral compass wins by teaching proper behavior thru character building and discipline. Does that mean that I think religion is the only place where character building can happen? Certainly not. I actually think parents have a greater responsibility in this regard. I feel that religion and scripture can support the effort in powerful ways. But nothing replaces the good influence and example of parents.

Edited July 7, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

I just want to say that I believe it is essential to understand these basics. Where does our sense of right and wrong come from? Why is it that so many struggle with it? What is our purpose or responsibility to ourselves and to others? And then a firm understanding on consequences never hurt anyone either.

I think that there are forces for good and evil forces at work too. I think we must be aware of what is happening inside and around us and how those forces influence our ability to act correctly. It is sad to me to see the global sense of right and wrong blurred and watered down. It seems as if in many cases morality is slowly.....or quickly evaporating away. I look back at some of our founding fathers or the values of the WWII generation ( i read the biography of Ben Franklin) and I miss that sense of honor and character that once was so important. I miss honesty and integrity and even respecting others by being on time. I think there is such value in any pursuit that builds character in ones self and especially in the young people around us. I don't think many trully understand that living an immoral lifestyle causes a retraction of freedom. Of course, some that sadly believe the opposite.

[VisionOfLehi]

I didn't grow up with religion.

These were things I learned from my dad:

It's never okay to hit a girl.

Wait to be offered something, don't ask.

Don't take crap from people.

From my mom, it's harder to put into a few words. She generally reinforced good things, often times by example. She didn't drink or smoke, which was good because I hated those things. Stuff like sex was an important thing (people called my mom a prude in highschool! Teased her!). Not something you just do willy-nilly and irresponsibly.

Be kind to people. Don't give up on them, even if they seem beyond help.

I was also heavily influenced by media. Movies and books. Chivalry always stood out to me. Not just when it's labeled chivalry, and not just towards women. After my folks got divorced I lived with my mom and was subject to a lot of romantic comedies and "girly" movies. The "good" guys were models for my morals.

Fantasy novels and such always have chivalrous guys!

Now, I seemed to home in on these things, though. They interested my from the onset. They stuck on me, as opposed to the negative things, and violent TV.

Also, I have always been a sharing and caring individual, with simple wants. Early examples: Halloween candy. I'd take a few pieces and pretty much give the rest to my brothers.

Lastly, I learned to have modest wants, because after my folks divorced (so, for about 11 years now) I've lived below the poverty line. I have always been empathic and very well aware of our lack of income, even when my brothers weren't.

I believe there's a reason WHY I was drawn to those things. Even before joining the Church. I believe my soul is attuned to those things. I believe I have an innate personality, or character, that is very strong, so it won out even over outside influences.

I believe all humans naturally have moral codes. That there is some built-in need for morals. But environment and teaching largely affect how this need is satisfied.

[prospectmom]

That was well said and this time I can say I totally agree with you......

[azazel420]

My morality comes from myself and comprises 3 rules.

Respect others.

Be honest.

Do what you want.

If you follow those 3 rules always then IMO you will be a good person.

[pam]

One thing my mom taught me while growing up that I TRY to still use in my dealings with people is: A little sugar goes alot farther than alot of salt.

[DigitalShadow]

There is a distinct difference between having a sense of what is right/wrong and following that sense. I was mostly talking about the origin of that sense and what people consider right/wrong which varies greatly between cultures, even with people of the same declared religion. Whether people follow what they feel is right is an entirely different matter which is unique to that person (Free Agency and all).

I think that humans do have an innate urge to do what they consider right, you can call it the Light of Christ or an evolutionary byproduct to help the survival of the species, but I would agree that it exists. Unfortunately sometimes, people allow the temptation of short term benifet outweight their sense of morality or even justify bad things to themselves. I believe that is more of a character trait than something that can be easily taught though.

I like the discussion so far :)

[Adeipho]

"That was the true light, which enlightens every man coming into the world." (John 1:9)

God has given to every person a light to guide his way. This light shines in good people and bad people, in people of all religions and people who have no religious belief, in people who feel they are saved and in those who feel they are lost. Nobody is ever so lost as not to have a glimmer of light. It is always close at hand. Even in the darkest and most confusing situation, there is a right way to go, and the light will show it.

The light shows us what is right and what is wrong. It doesn't depend on what we may have been taught by other people, or read in books, or figured out according to some philosophy or plan we might have. When we have light, we can just see that some actions are right, or wrong. For instance, we can see that we ought not to tell a lie, even though our minds might come up with all sorts of plausible excuses for lying.

The light is pure. Its home is in the conscience and not in the seat of emotion. It comes from above and is called the light of truth, or the light of Christ.

Morality comes through our relation to our creator. It has nothing to do with organized religion. Its built in like a duck knowing how to swim. However, we can dull it and numb it and ignore it

[bytor2112]

I think some people are genetically predisposed to certain behaviors. Lots of scientific evidence that different parts of the brain control different things like reason and judgement and emotions. I am guessing that "morality" or reason and judgement are pretty hardwired into our species. No doubt , ideas like order and disorder and the need for laws to insure equality and a general standard for moral behavior originates from some genetic trait. That would seem to suggest some eternal law or blueprint for higher living..... perhaps a divine blueprint.

[skalenfehl]

Personally speaking, I know that there is a God and I have the witnesses of many people before me and I have received my own witness and have experienced tangible evidences. I know that He has given all of mankind a moral compass and a path to follow that guarantees the most joy that anyone can have in life. That is Jesus Christ and that is who my moral compass is.

Edited July 8, 2008 by skalenfehl

[VisionOfLehi]

There is a distinct difference between having a sense of what is right/wrong and following that sense. I was mostly talking about the origin of that sense and what people consider right/wrong

I like how you worded that.

Again, here is something I said:

I believe all humans naturally have moral codes. That there is some built-in need for morals. But environment and teaching largely affect how this need is satisfied.

The origin of the need for moral codes... Now, being a convert, I have a good advantage of being able to think as if I weren't LDS, IOW how I used to. Even back then I always believe that we existed "before"

I didn't quite know HOW. Some people believe in reincarnation. Other belief systems also have a "pre-mortal realm" thing going on. I wasn't sure, but I felt that they had something right there.

Now, humans NEED a moral code. When one human being interacts with another some sort of moral code must develop. One can not interact another without following some sort of "rules."

Cultures have largely shaped and molded these rules. Yet, as you said, individual codes vary even within cultures and religions.

Going back to my belief in the pre-existence... I think one's likelihood of choosing "this" over "that" as far as individual moral codes are heavily influenced by one's prior, pre-Earth personality. Yes, individual experiences can have an affect (I believe very much in sociology and nurture, on top of nature), but even then... How those experience sway you depends on your nature.

Another indicator, to me, of pre-Mortal personality, is found in the individual personalities of babies. I'm sure if you ask any mother of multiple children here that they'll say their babies behaved differently than one another. And at that age, culture would not have an effect. And, IMHO, genetic disposition just does not explain that.

As a side note, the fact that the LDS Church believes in and teaches about the Pre-Earth life, and it all made sense... It resonated very strongly with my sense of truth, in a way that no other pre-Earth beliefs had. It was just another indicator to me that the Church was right.

[ampat777]

I experienced members and non-members with morals and without morals. So I guess it depends on the people you live around, your friends and of course how someone was raised.

It also depends on how strong a person is and if he lets himself getting influenced by the "bad" society.

I´m not sure if this makes sense but I hope so.

[VisionOfLehi]

I don't think it's fair to say people lack morals, but rather they like your idea of morals.

What they may lack is respect, but in their moral code that's alright.

[ampat777]

I don't think it's fair to say people lack morals, but rather they like your idea of morals.

What they may lack is respect, but in their moral code that's alright.

Yeah but do we have to accept whatever someone calles his moral code? I don´t think so. There are limits and there is right and wrong.

[Misshalfway]

Well, we humans do like to justify ourselves. I think sometimes we prefer the lie. It sounds better, and feels better to believe the lie because the searing of our conscience hurts too badly.

[skalenfehl]

Except there is widespread disagreement on what constitutes "limits, right, and wrong." So we are back to where we started from.

That's probably due to moral relativism. Without a source of moral absolutes, being relatively moral depends on each individual. There really is no right and wrong, good or bad, per se. It's a big gray area. Perhaps it just depends on what happens to make that particular person feel good or bad and thus live by that code.

[DigitalShadow]

That's probably due to moral relativism. Without a source of moral absolutes, being relatively moral depends on each individual. There really is no right and wrong, good or bad, per se. It's a big gray area. Perhaps it just depends on what happens to make that particular person feel good or bad and thus live by that code.

I don't believe that there is a universal set of morals. Just looking at what is accepted behavior in other parts of the world and throughout time even is enough to convince me of that. Thousands of years ago, people were well within moral and religious standards to stone someone for what we would consider minor offenses today. Moral standards are determined by the society you live in. I believe that is moral relativism, but I also believe it is not entirely correct to call this a 'gray area' because everyone living in the society understands what its core morals are and what you will be punished for. The 'gray area' comes when you look into societies that you are not a part of and judge them based on your societies values.

[DigitalShadow]

Another indicator, to me, of pre-Mortal personality, is found in the individual personalities of babies. I'm sure if you ask any mother of multiple children here that they'll say their babies behaved differently than one another. And at that age, culture would not have an effect. And, IMHO, genetic disposition just does not explain that.

As a side note, I think there is a flaw in your logic here. I agree that babies exibit very different behavior, but your assumption that genetic disposition is the only scientific explaination for that is incorrect. Our DNA is the blueprint, but as the neural pathways that make up our brain form, there are an infinite number of ways it could turn out based on the small differences in initial conditions. Does a snowflake form the same way every time even with the same basic materials?

[Misshalfway]

I am sure that societies create their own morals.....but I am not sure they always get it right. Even though something is generally accepted or legislated doesn't make it right or good. Clearly the United States was created because captivity and oppression were immoral. Certainly slavery in this country as acceptable, but clearly immoral. It was immoral whether anyone believed so or not.

There are some societies that believe that circumcising women is the "right" thing to do. It is a horrific practice!! And an act of terrible abuse! Not to mention disabling and terrorizing to ones body and spirit.

Societies can be and are immoral. Why? because of greedy power mongers who only know how to oppress and destroy for their own gain.

Anybody seen the movie "Water"? It is the story of a very young Indian girl who is forced to marry a very old man and who becomes a widow before she is even old enough to understand that she was married in the first place. She is cast out much like a leper. She is forced to cut her hair and is regarded by the society as refuse. She has not rights and no future. Why? She is told it is the will of God. The truth is, the men in the society don't want the women getting the inheritances of these deceased husbands.

Where is the morality in this cultural practice? And is it not the right thing to stand up to such corruption? Not because my society it better, but because right is right no matter who you are or where you live.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Misshalfway

[DigitalShadow]

I am sure that societies create their own morals.....but I am not sure they always get it right. Even though something is generally accepted doesn't make it right or good. Clearly the United States was created because captivity and oppression were immoral. Certainly slavery in this country as acceptable, but clearly immoral. It was immoral whether anyone believed so or not.

There are some societies that believe that circumcising women is the "right" thing to do. It is a horrific practice!! And an act of terrible abuse! Not to mention disabling and terrorizing to ones body and spirit.

Societies can be and are immoral. Why? because of greedy power mongers who only know how to oppress and destroy for their own gain.

Anybody seen the movie "Water"? It is the story of a very young Indian girl who is forced to marry a very old man and who becomes a widow before she is even old enough to understand that she was married in the first place. She is cast out much like a leper. She is forced to cut her hair and is regarded by the society as refuse. She has not rights and no future. Why? She is told it is the will of God. The truth is, the men in the society don't want the women getting the inheritances of these deceased husbands.

Where is the morality in this cultural practice? And is it not the right thing to stand up to such corruption? Not because my society it better, but because right is right no matter who you are or where you live.

I didn't claim that we should never intervene in other societies, only that it is a large gray area, and an arrogant assumption to think that our particular values should be universal. At what point we stop imposing our values is a slippery slope.

[Misshalfway]

Isn't there a difference between principle and practice? I think often the same morality can be expressed in culturally unique ways. I think sometimes it is the practices that we impose because we don't take the time to understand the underlying values inside their context.

And I will argue that the grey is a result of the deficiencies of man-- not the absence of moral truth in the universe. The universe has infinite truths....laws. Those laws govern our world and how and why it works the way it does. We humans have learned that when we mess with those laws, unpleasant things happen. Like when Yellowstone national park killed all the wolves because they assumed all predators were bad. It mucked up the ecosystem.

I believe that there are moral laws as well. Laws of honesty and chastity and honor. I believe also that there are consequences for violations. I believe the consequences can be seen and measured in much the same way as natural law.

[Misshalfway]

I don't believe that there is a universal set of morals. Just looking at what is accepted behavior in other parts of the world and throughout time even is enough to convince me of that. Thousands of years ago, people were well within moral and religious standards to stone someone for what we would consider minor offenses today. Moral standards are determined by the society you live in. I believe that is moral relativism, but I also believe it is not entirely correct to call this a 'gray area' because everyone living in the society understands what its core morals are and what you will be punished for. The 'gray area' comes when you look into societies that you are not a part of and judge them based on your societies values.

I am saying that if it is society that sets proper moral standards, then they have a long way to go at getting it right!!! Not sure I would put all my eggs in that basket!!

[DigitalShadow]

Isn't there a difference between principle and practice? I think often the same morality can be expressed in culturally unique ways. I think sometimes it is the practices that we impose because we don't take the time to understand the underlying values inside their context.

And I will argue that the grey is a result of the deficiencies of man-- not the absence of moral truth in the universe. The universe has infinite truths....laws. Those laws govern our world and how and why it works the way it does. We humans have learned that when we mess with those laws, unpleasant things happen. Like when Yellowstone national park killed all the wolves because they assumed all predators were bad. It mucked up the ecosystem.

I believe that there are moral laws as well. Laws of honesty and chastity and honor. I believe also that there are consequences for violations. I believe the consequences can be seen and measured in much the same way as natural law.

And I will argue that there is no universal moral code. Moral values arise so that people can coexist with others. With this intent, each culture defines moral rights and wrongs through various methods (such as religion or laws) so that society can progress. Sometimes these values get out of line with their original purpose and become counterproductive to a society. At that point, either the society dies out and is replaced, or the change comes from the people over time.

Of course there are some similarities between cultural rights and wrongs, but in my opinion that simply points to a similarity in purpose rather than an underlying absolute truth regarding morality.