aodan Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 I'm of the firm belief that Nephites were white skinned, like me and the settlers of America. My friend, however, is not. I'm not interested in proving myself right or my friend wrong. I just want to know what you guys think. My belief comes from this passage, 1 Nephi 13:15 "And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain." My friend doesn't think that I understand the passage correctly. I then pointed him to this passage, "And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations." 1 Nephi 12:23 Were they white (pale like people of an Aryan race) or did they look much like the Indians of America do now days?
MarginOfError Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Ask Chris Heimerdinger. He might know. Actually the Nephites were white-skinned because they maintained all the ritual washings of the Law of Moses. The Lamanties rejected these washings, and their skin became dark as they refused to bathe as a symbol of having rejected the Gospel. That also explains why they were considered a loathsome and a filthy people.
skalenfehl Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) I think people also tend to associate white with Caucasian. You don't have to be Caucasian to have light skin and Jews weren't all dark brown skinned, as far as I understand. Where did Lehi and Ishmael come from? Jerusalem. Traditional Jewish clothes were under tunics, leather belts or girdles, outer tunics, robes and headdresses to protect them from the sun. The Lamanites spent a lot of time in the sun hunting for their raw meat wearing nothing but their loin cloths. Enos 1: 20 20 And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us. Alma 3: 5 5 Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins, and also their armor, which was girded about them, and their bows, and their arrows, and their stones, and their slings, and so forth.It makes sense that they maintained their washings. Nephi did build a temple after the temple of Solomon. They also didn't live in tents as the Lamanites did, so perhaps they didn't spend as much time out in the sun? Who can really say. It's not hard to imagine the Nephites being lighter skinned. Edited July 8, 2008 by skalenfehl
Misshalfway Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Ditto on Skaf's points.I think that the whiteness and darkness discussed were a description of their spirits, not necessarily the exact color of skin. The issue at hand was sin, not race.
skalenfehl Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) Nephi beheld many great things when he spoke with an angel. Here's one: 1 Nephi 13:12-1512 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. 13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters. 14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten. 15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain. 16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.Here Nephi is seeing a lot of history happening on the American Continent (can you guess who the man is in v. 12 and who all the gentiles were and why they were leaving?)Anyway, v. 15 gives us a clue as to how Nephi describes the people. They were white and exceedingly fair just like his own people.Here's another source describing their skin color and the cursing of the Lamanites by the Lord, which supports MissHalfway's statement (they were dark because they were sinful):2 Ne. 5: 21 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. Edited July 8, 2008 by skalenfehl
Fiannan Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Ditto on Skaf's points.I think that the whiteness and darkness discussed were a description of their spirits, not necessarily the exact color of skin. The issue at hand was sin, not race. Jews (actually Hebrews) varied in appearance but they were essentially white. David and Esau were red heads .. speculation could extend to Adam in which in Hebrew refers to one with pale, reddish skin (generally associated with red hair). The Song of Solomon, 5:10 describes Solomon as:My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand. Ruddy? Usually associated with ultra-pale skin and red hair -- although many Brits are also ruddy but have brown hair and burn really easily. I was listening to some show on Discovery whre they were talking about Kinewick Man and a local Indian talked about legends his people had about a race of wandering Indians who were tall with red hair and the legends in Meso-America around Macho Pechu describe a race of auburn-haired people.
Misshalfway Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 I see what you are saying and I perhaps didn't make my comment clear. I do believe that there was indeed a difference in skin color, but the description of "dark and loathsome" had more to do with the results of sin on the spirit.
rameumptom Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 The Book of Mormon uses "black" as a color to describe the Lamanites. The problem with this is, Native Americans aren't black, but a reddish colored skin. We also have to remember that most LDS scholars accept the idea that the Lamanites and Nephite nations were cultural lineages, not DNA lines. With the number of Nephites that dissented to the Lamanites, and the number of Ammonites that joined the Nephites, and then we have the Mulekites joining the Nephites, and probably other groups that joined both sides along the way, how does one determine skin colors? As for the passage in 1 Ne 13:15, I believe Nephi is comparing the Gentiles to the Nephites with the terms, "fair and beautiful" and not the term "white", which precedes the comparative description.
bert10 Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) Deleted. See Site Rules 2 and 11. Edited July 11, 2008 by MaidservantX
MarginOfError Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Care to uncover in all that logic, bert, why black people who join the Church are still black?
Misshalfway Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Hi Aodan....The answer is Yes. Becoming white skin...is one of the many blessings of God for those who become born again Spiritually.Read the Odes of Solomon which is an account of one who was born again.In it he claims...1. That he received a body free from pain and afflictions.2. that he is an alien [another race]3. Families and friends no longer recognized him.The reverse of this is also true....the Flesh will eventually go from white to darker tones to reflect the Spiritual aspect of man. It can take many generations or few. It depends how fast and to what depth of wickedness that they shall sink into.Is it an accident that white men were almost all Christians. That the white race outperformed all others race in all areas of living..such as prosperity happiness, freedom? In the early 1900, Canada, USA and Europe controlled 97% of the world resources.And is it true that the white race because of wickedness....has already begun the decline in all of these areas? Has not God began to strip the wealth of our countries...since the 70's when they left the gold standard as a direct link to GNP?There is a real physical change that occurs when one is born again Spiritually. It is but one of the many signs God has given to those who love Him to help them determine which are truly born again...from those who are only born again in their imagination.Peace be unto youbert10Not sure we are really understanding the Lord here.
prospectmom Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 I am not sure this is going in a good place......... Are we back to white supremecy????? I am sure we don't want that
aodan Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Posted July 8, 2008 We do not want that. It does not fit into the teachings of our church or my personal beliefs that one race is better than another because of skin color. There are more factors to success then the color of one's skin. I believe we have sufficiently discussed this topic. Thanks guys :)
prospectmom Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 The subject dosen't really make sense that anyone could think that way.
bert10 Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) Deleted. Site Rules 2 and 11. Edited July 11, 2008 by MaidservantX
Misshalfway Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 · Hidden Hidden Yes I can Margin of Error....It is simple They are not yet born again in the Spirit and by fire. There are other blessings that come when this happens as well.The gospel of GOD is about overcoming the fall...which is all the woes that came with the fall.And those who are born again spiritually and do overcome the fall....will receive these additional promises from the Lord Himself.Revelation 2:17- He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.If in the past those who were dark skin and joined the True Church of GOD became white skinned... And do not do so today...perhaps it is time to ask some questions.One thing I do know, and also the church teach this given to us from the Lord...That if any man receives any blessings from the Lord it is because he has fulfilled the conditions upon which [law] the blessing is predicated on.D&C 130:21 - And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.To all who shall Fulfill the same laws that those ancient Lamanites believed and lived... and they too shall receive the same blessings....it is as simple as that.Peace be unto youbert10You got a nice mix of truth and some other stuff........
Misshalfway Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Yes I can Margin of Error....It is simple They are not yet born again in the Spirit and by fire. There are other blessings that come when this happens as well.The gospel of GOD is about overcoming the fall...which is all the woes that came with the fall.And those who are born again spiritually and do overcome the fall....will receive these additional promises from the Lord Himself.Revelation 2:17- He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.If in the past those who were dark skin and joined the True Church of GOD became white skinned... And do not do so today...perhaps it is time to ask some questions.One thing I do know, and also the church teach this given to us from the Lord...That if any man receives any blessings from the Lord it is because he has fulfilled the conditions upon which [law] the blessing is predicated on.D&C 130:21 - And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.To all who shall Fulfill the same laws that those ancient Lamanites believed and lived... and they too shall receive the same blessings....it is as simple as that.Peace be unto youbert10You got a nice mix of truth and some other stuff........We all fell! Not just the darker skinned. Please! And our skin doesn't become whiter with sanctification, our souls do. Goodness sake. Let's make sure we are teaching correct doctrine here. No wonder non-members get confused.
MarginOfError Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Wow...mine eyes have been opened! I have seen the light and been bathed in glory!
prospectmom Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Sarcasm the answer to everything NOT being Self Rightous just as dangerous I know I have spelling errors please forgive...........
Elphaba Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Wow...mine eyes have been opened!I have seen the light and been bathed in glory!You might want to put on some shades to protect your eyes from the sudden brilliance, although, perhaps your eyes already are protected given you are white, and therefore more spiritual than our brown brothers and sisters. Actually, now that I think about it, you don't need sunglasses at all! :pElphaba
Elphaba Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 Sarcasm the answer to everything NOTSarcasm is EXACTLY what this thread needs. The comments that white people are somehow better than dark people is obscene.Elphaba
bert10 Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) Deleted. Site Rules 2 and 11. Edited July 11, 2008 by MaidservantX
rameumptom Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 The untruth in the statements is that when a person becomes spiritually pure they grow white (gradually or over generations or whatever/however).The reality is, there were some incorrect beliefs in the Church up until 1978 concerning black skin as a curse. I suggest a good reading at Why This Web Site :: Blacklds.org and see the concepts shown there.Some of the most righteous and perfect people I know are from Uganda, where some of the deepest black skin comes from. They are a beautiful ebony color, and I do not see in them any curse at all. I also know many Native Americans, some of whom have been LDS for generations. Guess what? Still have that deep reddish color to their pigment.As Jesus taught, one must wash the inner vessel, as the outer vessel doesn't mean anything. This concept of skin curse is akin to the belief robber barons of a century ago had, thinking that God had made them rich and so they obviously must be more righteous than others.
MarginOfError Posted July 8, 2008 Report Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) MarginOfError: Care to uncover in all that logic, bert, why black people who join the Church are still black? bert10: Yes I can Margin of Error....It is simple They are not yet born again in the Spirit and by fire.... If in the past those who were dark skin and joined the True Church of GOD became white skinned... And do not do so today...perhaps it is time to ask some questions.... All are equally being given the Gospel...And only those who live those laws shall receive the blessings of the Lord..because all His blessings are predicated on laws...and God is no respecter of persons... ________________________ So even though a black person accepts the Gospel, embraces it, is baptized, and lives the Gospel, he or she isn't born of the spirit. Time to ask the questions is right. Did the black person not truly embrace the Gospel? Are black people incapable of embracing the Gospel? or is God a respecter of persons? preferring non-blacks to blacks? Under the system you've described, the answer to at least one of these questions has to be yes, but yet, your statements also indicate that the answer to both of them is no. (Disproved by Contradiction). Edited July 8, 2008 by MarginOfError Notice that I'm backing out of this now. Thanks, but no thanks.
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