Non-LDS beliefs

[bytor2112]

How are people who lived before the Savior "saved" according to non-LDS denominations?

[Jbs2763]

this is coming from my baptist buddy....."they go to hell"

granted he doesn't represent that whole religion...but that is my source

[Guest GhostRider]

In my studies of religion...it depends on the denomination and faith.

As an example...Baptist (should say most baptist some churches are different) it is when a person prays a very simple prayer asking for the Saviour to come into thier hearts. To wash away thier sins and make them pure again. Usually the person "walks the isle" and comes before the church to profess that this has happened. then follows baptism...that is what happens now...as for the time before christ. I am unsure.Moses and the ppl before christ never knew aabout Jesus. Would take alot of study and prayer to find an answer...yet who is to say who would be right?

Interesting topic bytor...am interested in what other ppl say also.

Edited July 12, 2008 by ex19k

[Jbs2763]

this is coming from my baptist buddy....."they go to hell"

granted he doesn't represent that whole religion...but that is my source

also all those who live on the earth now and never have the oppurtuinity to hear about Christ suffer the same fate

[bytor2112]

In my studies of religion...it depends on the denomination and faith.

As an example...Baptist (should say most baptist some churches are different) it is when a person prays a very simple prayer asking for the Saviour to come into thier hearts. To wash away thier sins and make them pure again. Usually the person "walks the isle" and comes before the church to profess that this has happened. then follows baptism...that is what happens now...as for the time before christ. I am unsure.Moses and the ppl before christ never knew aabout Jesus. Would take alot of study and prayer to find an answer...yet who is to say who would be right?Interesting topic bytor...am interested in what other ppl say also.

The Jews were looking for a promised Messiah.....the Prophets foretold his coming, his birth, his death, his resurrection. The sacrifice of lambs, marking the door with blood, the serpent on the stick that the Israelites needed only to look at to live,manna, etc,etc,etc. All these things were symbolic of the coming of the Savior.

[WANDERER]

According to works, there isn't the emphasis on ordinations for salvation that the LDS has. Either you are under the covenant of salvation or not.

[Guest GhostRider]

That is true...The medical cross that is seen today..most do not relize that it is a reference to the one that Moses made to cure the iserlites in the deserts.

One other thing to think about... Yes there were signs as you have pointed out. But then..Even in Christs time. Sometimes the things that is looked for, be it right in front of your face, is yet often unseen.

The bible also states that even though we are to work hard to win souls to the Lord, many will not accept. Cant remember what passage that is from though..will look it up and repost if somebody wants it.

Here is another thought to ponder. From an "outside perspective" (nonLDS) most people thought that the Indians had a religion very simalar to Christianity before the settlers and explores arrived. Most believed in The Great Spirit, Wise Man Above, or in my studies Have even heard Our Sky Father Mentioned. Some believed in a trinity under Different names. Most of this is from Friars, Preachers and ministers of various faiths. What are some of your thoughts on this?

[bytor2112]

According to works, there isn't the emphasis on ordinations for salvation that the LDS has. Either you are under the covenant of salvation or not.

Umm, I am not following, perhaps you could clarify or elaborate.

[abqfriend]

Here is my own view-which may not be my official Catholic Church's answer.

I believe that such decisions are left up to God.

I cannot see a God of Justice and Love condemning anyone who came before the Savior or through no fault of their own has not heard of -Jesus.

I know the LDS Church has an ordinance of Baptism for the Dead-which may answer part of that question for them-quote me if I miss understand this doctrine. This may be why ancestry is important especially for members of the LDS. I cannot fault them for this-as Baptism for the Dead is at least mentioned in the NT book of Corinthians. Paul mentions it when writing to the Corinthian Church.

Perhaps a member of the LDS Church can explain these passages: ( I am studying the Book of Mormon)

In Alma 34:35 we read: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked"

2 Nephi 9:15-16: "And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end."

Here is a Catholic explanation from an un-official Catholic Web site:

Jesus makes a clear distinction between those who are sons of the kingdom (that is, those who have knowledge of and accepted of the faith) and those who are not. He includes in the kingdom of heaven many of those who are not. Jesus graces us with His incarnation, and His presence is known through His Body, the Church. The Church carries on the work of Christ here on earth. Those to whom the Church has not preached the Good News will be judged by God in a manner known to God and tempered with His mercy.

Source:

CUF.org :: Catholics United for the Faith

-Carol

this is coming from my baptist buddy....."they go to hell"

granted he doesn't represent that whole religion...but that is my source

[WANDERER]

Admittedly my questions on the topic have always had vague answers, so from a pentecostal fundamentalist point of view with not a whole lot of theology behind it:

There's a belief that the Jewish people will be judged according to their covenant with God and that it still stands to some degree...the grafting on idea.

That being saved is accepting Christ and being under a new covenant, where grace and repentance and all of that are in effect.

That those that are innocent: young children and those that are handicapped or have not had the message of Christ will be judged according to their level of innocence or their works.

And all three of those operate under the you cannot be saved except through being born again through Christ clause...so while those beliefs exist...is it an unhappy limbo to be in and do they reconcile with scripture>? I think that most just put it in God's hands and that those things will be understood better post resurrection.

[bytor2112]

We believe that Salvation must come to all mankind exactly the same way. From Adam to our time present. Every person who has ever lived or will ever live will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel, whether in this fallen sphere in which we now live or in the Spirit world after they pass from mortality. Each will have to accept Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized. This is why we perform sacred ordinances like baptism in Holy Temples around the world. The Savior himself was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". Confusion and contradiction still prevails in Christendom over how mankind is to be saved because of Christ's Atonement. One of the many reasons for the restored Gospel.

The verse from Alma...... refers to not waiting until the end of your life to repent. Repentance is a process. To repent we must have a mighty change of heart. We must turn away from our sins and strive to live a Christ like life...... like we truely are his followers.

If we still have lustful desires or addictions or whatever and we have not cleaned up our life.... if we have not had the Atonement of Jesus Christ in our lives.... the same spirit, the same thoughts and desires that we had in mortality will go with us in the spirit world.

To be a Christian.... to be a follower of Christ.... to be saved..... to recieve salvation because of the grace of Jesus Christ, because he drank of the Fathers bitter cup and bore our sins, our griefs, sorrows and afflictions.... we must strive to live his example."if you love me, keep my commandments." If we love him, if we are his.... we strive to keep his commandments. Is this salvation by works? Or is this being a true and faithful servant of the Savior of mankind?

We all must come to salvation in exactly the same way. Same ordinances. One faith, one baptism. God is perfect and as such it could be in no other way.

[Listener]

Regarding non-LDS traditions, Hebrews 11 and Romans 4 are the chapters most often mentioned.

[Islander]

How are people who lived before the Savior "saved" according to non-LDS denominations?

Well, I searched somewhat among the recent talks of the prophets and the apostles of the church but with only mixed results. I will make it a point to research the subject in more detail.

In the last portion of Isaiah 28: the prophet is painting a very clear picture. THe field (ther earth) is His and He has control over all of it. We are all different and thus require special treatment. He "plants" us in different parts of the field and under very different conditions. Some are sheltered and protected (cummin) in clusters and surrounded by shade and int eh most humid portion of the field. Other require more structure and discipline, organized in rows (the wheat) and are expected to produce in high quantity. The barley at the end of teh field where there is rough terrain, salty terrain and not a lot of share but it will be well, the same.

So He knows and is aware of all of us on the earth, whether in long standing, very safe and traditional LDS communities, or in the middle of the Amazon jungle and cut of from all knowledge of God.

In Mosiah 3:8-11 speaks of the Savior and His Atonement. Verse 11 is quite interesting:

"For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned."

I suggest that the passage addresses the issue of those that died prior to the coming of the Christ and had no awareness of the Atonement.

Further, 1 Pet 4:6 it states:

"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

And D&C 138 paint a more clear picture of what happens to those that died "in darkness" as the way for God to judge according to His mercies and justice:

56 "But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead."

• • •

57 "I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead."

From this very cursory overview of the scriptures is somewhat evident that God does have a plan. That He has made provisions for ALL his children and that He is a fair and just God and that He will avail salvation for all his children across all times, for that is His work and His glory; the salvation and immortality of men.

That would seem like a fairly basic assumption and position for Latter Day Saints.

[prisonchaplain]

How are people who lived before the Savior "saved" according to non-LDS denominations?

Let's begin with the Hebrews. Since they believed in the Savior to come, they were saved (those who obeyed the covenant). As for the rest, some argue that they were damned to hell, because of the sins. Others would look to passages like Romans 1, and see the possibility that folk could respond to God based upon "general revelation," and perhaps be judged by a lesser standard "according to what they knew."

My simple answer is that I don't know, but that God is good and just and no one will second guess him on judgment day. On the other hand, within the church we ought to assume that those who do not know have slim chance of salvation, and so we must be especially motivated to spread the Good News.

[Traveler]

Let's begin with the Hebrews. Since they believed in the Savior to come, they were saved (those who obeyed the covenant). As for the rest, some argue that they were damned to hell, because of the sins. Others would look to passages like Romans 1, and see the possibility that folk could respond to God based upon "general revelation," and perhaps be judged by a lesser standard "according to what they knew."

My simple answer is that I don't know, but that God is good and just and no one will second guess him on judgment day. On the other hand, within the church we ought to assume that those who do not know have slim chance of salvation, and so we must be especially motivated to spread the Good News.

A very interesting post – at least to me. Please let me ask a question. Is there, with in “the church”, any retribution (punishment – or less chance) for someone that has been redeemed of Christ but that does not reach out to another that then dies before hearing and therefore saved? Who would suffer the more or have the most slim chance? The one that searched but never believed in Christ or the believer in Christ that did not love his lost brother?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

A very interesting post – at least to me. Please let me ask a question. Is there, with in “the church”, any retribution (punishment – or less chance) for someone that has been redeemed of Christ but that does not reach out to another that then dies before hearing and therefore saved? Who would suffer the more or have the most slim chance? The one that searched but never believed in Christ or the believer in Christ that did not love his lost brother?

The Traveler

There is retribution for those who are redeemed, and do not testify of Christ. It can be rather severe. At one point Jesus said that if we are ashamed of him before men then he cannot speak on our behalf before the Father. In other words, at some point, the redeemed who refuses to let his or her light shine may not be truly redeemed.

Short of that, we do believe that there are rewards in heaven, and that those who do little will receive little reward. They'll be no paupers in the Kingdom of God, but we will be held accountable for our misdeeds and failures to obey.

There is also the promise in Scriptures that whoever searches with a sincere heart, will find God. So, it may be that the premise of your question is incorrect.

[VisionOfLehi]

I don't know how this is taught in other churches, but when Christ rose, wasn't there also a bunch of saints who rose with him? That was the FIRST big resurrection.

Those saints were more than just the patriarchs, right?

Is that how it's taught in other denominations?

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

I don't know how this is taught in other churches, but when Christ rose, wasn't there also a bunch of saints who rose with him? That was the FIRST big resurrection.

Those saints were more than just the patriarchs, right?

Is that how it's taught in other denominations?

Actually, Matthew 27:50-53 talks about this. Most Denominational churches don't really teach on this subject. I have not heard this talked about much among many Evangelical Christians either.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

What is also interesting is that at first reading this passage, there seems to be some bit of confusion. Yet, there is dual meaning in this passage. The graves were opened at Christ's death, but the resurrection of the saints did not occur until after Christ rose - thus being the First Fruits of the Resurrection. The reason why they did not rise after his (Christ) giving up the ghost is because Christ had to claim victory over death. It is here where the passage in 1 Peter (I think) where Christ went into hades to declare his victory over death and resurrection occurred. That he released those who were in prison and were bound by death. This also was two fold as well. Yet, this is only pertaining to the nature of the resurrection of Christ and the saints. Thus, the first resurrection has already occured. The second resurrection is awaiting to occur after Christ returns again. The second resurrection is going to be of both the Just and the Unjust. Why? Because unless there are a total of three resurrections, then we must conclude that there is only two until there is substantial scripture support for three. Which might be the case.

Hope this answers your question. Essentially - yes, scripture teaches that the saints were risen after Christ's resurrection because he was and is the first fruits of the Resurrection. What Evangelical Christians have a hard time to answer is the question of where are these saints with their physical bodies of flesh and bones? Once they were resurrected in the manner that Christ was resurrected, then they must possess a physical and glorified resurrected body, much like Christ possesses a physical resurrected glorified body.

Another support for LDS Theology and Doctrine biblically.

[Traveler]

Thus, the first resurrection has already occured. The second resurrection is awaiting to occur after Christ returns again. The second resurrection is going to be of both the Just and the Unjust. Why? Because unless there are a total of three resurrections, then we must conclude that there is only two until there is substantial scripture support for three. Which might be the case.

This is an excellent post but let us clarify an important notion about the resurrection of the dead. The scriptures tell us of three resurrections. The First (greatest or most noble) is Celestial, the second (not greatest and less noble) is the Terrestrial, and the third is the least great and least noble and is called the Telestial. (See 1Cor 15)

Some confuse the First, Second and Third resurrections as being in strict chronological order and count the number by when the resurrection begin. This is only true in part because there will be two first resurrections. One for the saints prior to Christ (that began when Jesus was resurrected) and the second - first resurrection for the saints after the admonition of Christ which will begin when Christ returns.

The second resurrection will not begin until all Celestial (or first) are completed. The third or Telestial will not start until the second (or Terrestrial) has been completed.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

There is retribution for those who are redeemed, and do not testify of Christ. It can be rather severe. At one point Jesus said that if we are ashamed of him before men then he cannot speak on our behalf before the Father. In other words, at some point, the redeemed who refuses to let his or her light shine may not be truly redeemed.

Short of that, we do believe that there are rewards in heaven, and that those who do little will receive little reward. They'll be no paupers in the Kingdom of God, but we will be held accountable for our misdeeds and failures to obey.

There is also the promise in Scriptures that whoever searches with a sincere heart, will find God. So, it may be that the premise of your question is incorrect.

I attempted to thank you for your post but the something goofy was going on and the site system would not let me.

This agrees with LDS doctrine - the one point is that in LDS doctrine a soul's probation is not over until sometime after they have suffered death - where we believe all that seek will indeed find G-d if the opportunity was not able to be completed correctly in this life – which means there was no authorized saint that declared the “fullness” of the Gospel of Christ to them.

Thanks again.

The Traveler

Edited July 14, 2008 by Traveler

[abqfriend]

Hi I am not LDS. Can you please give the Scripture for Terrestrial and Celestial. If not found in the OT or NT, Please give the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenant references.

Thanks

-Carol

This is an excellent post but let us clarify an important notion about the resurrection of the dead. The scriptures tell us of three resurrections. The First (greatest or most noble) is Celestial, the second (not greatest and less noble) is the Terrestrial, and the third is the least great and least noble and is called the Telestial. (See 1Cor 15)

Some confuse the First, Second and Third resurrections as being in strict chronological order and count the number by when the resurrection begin. This is only true in part because there will be two first resurrections. One for the saints prior to Christ (that began when Jesus was resurrected) and the second - first resurrection for the saints after the admonition of Christ which will begin when Christ returns.

The second resurrection will not begin until all Celestial (or first) are completed. The third or Telestial will not start until the second (or Terrestrial) has been completed.

The Traveler

[VisionOfLehi]

Hi I am not LDS. Can you please give the Scripture for Terrestrial and Celestial. If not found in the OT or NT, Please give the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenant references.

Thanks

-Carol

John 14:

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

1 Cor. 15:

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

2 Cor. 12:

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

D&C 88:

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

D&C 76:

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

[John316]

People who lived before Jesus died as sacrifice for our continual sin, only went to Heaven if they followed all of the law listed in the New Testament of the Holy Bible. If a person were to commit sin or break God's law, they had to complete the appropriate sacrifice ritual to atone for their sin. This was very tedious and nearly impossible for many people, so God sent his one and only begotten son to fufill the Old Testament prophesy by being born of a virgin and walk the Earth without sin. He was crusified and died. Then three days later, he rose from the tomb and walked the Earth. Without a professed belief in him today, and confession of your sins, it is impossible for anyone to go to heaven and be in God's presence.

[abqfriend]

I assume you mean the Hebrews or Jews in the first part of your comment. Most of the world of that day knew little of the Hebrew's beliefs.

The NT did not come into formal existance till around the year 300 AD or so. There was no NT at the time of Jesus.

Source: Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does the second part of your comment leave out the Buddhist, Hindu, Islam and those that have not heard the Gospel through no fault of their own?-What about them?

People who lived before Jesus died as sacrifice for our continual sin, only went to Heaven if they followed all of the law listed in the New Testament of the Holy Bible. If a person were to commit sin or break God's law, they had to complete the appropriate sacrifice ritual to atone for their sin. This was very tedious and nearly impossible for many people, so God sent his one and only begotten son to fufill the Old Testament prophesy by being born of a virgin and walk the Earth without sin. He was crusified and died. Then three days later, he rose from the tomb and walked the Earth. Without a professed belief in him today, and confession of your sins, it is impossible for anyone to go to heaven and be in God's presence.

[bytor2112]

John 3:16

We believe that Salvation must come to all mankind exactly the same way. From Adam to our time present. Every person who has ever lived or will ever live will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel, whether in this fallen sphere in which we now live or in the Spirit world after they pass from mortality. Each will have to accept Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized. This is why we perform sacred ordinances like baptism in Holy Temples around the world. The Savior himself was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". Confusion and contradiction still prevails in Christendom over how mankind is to be saved because of Christ's Atonement. One of the many reasons for the restored Gospel.

To be a Christian.... to be a follower of Christ.... to be saved..... to recieve salvation because of the grace of Jesus Christ, because he drank of the Fathers bitter cup and bore our sins, our griefs, sorrows and afflictions.... we must strive to live his example."if you love me, keep my commandments." If we love him, if we are his.... we strive to keep his commandments. Is this salvation by works? Or is this being a true and faithful servant of the Savior of mankind?

We all must come to salvation in exactly the same way. Same ordinances. One faith, one baptism. God is perfect and as such it could be in no other way.