Anti-Mormons

[Maureen]

Ok, I believe that Christ died for me paid for my sins so I am saved, right? So now, can I go make my fortune in organized crime. I mean, my sins are covered so I may as well make it worth while. Or do I need to obey the commandments and try to be a good person. According to Christians, nothing I do will help so I may as well live it up.

Some may think, “This is great--once I am saved, I can do just as I please, and not lose my salvation!” But salvation is not about being free to do as one pleases. Salvation is becoming free from having to serve the old sin nature, and being free to pursue a right relationship with God. As long as believers live on this earth in their sinful bodies, there will be a constant struggle with giving in to sin. Living in sin hinders the relationship God seeks to have with mankind, and as long as one lives in sin as a believer, he will not enjoy the relationship God intended to have with him. However, Christians can have victory over the struggle with sin by studying and applying God’s Word (the Bible) in their lives, and being controlled by the Holy Spirit--that is, submitting to the Spirit’s influence and leading in everyday circumstances, and through the Spirit obeying God’s Word.

So, while many religious systems require that a person do certain things or not do certain things, Christianity is about having a relationship with God. Christianity is about believing that Christ died on the cross as payment for your own sin, and rose again. Your sin debt is paid and you can have fellowship with God. You can have victory over your sin nature and walk in fellowship and obedience with God. That is true biblical Christianity.

peanutgallery,

Did the words above escape your understanding? ktfords put in the effort to explain and you ignore most of what he said.

M.

[rameumptom]

The person who sins and does not repent of those sins, will pay for them. In D&C 19, the Lord commands us to repent, or suffer even as he suffered.

Alma 36 gives us an idea of what it would be like, as Alma the Younger suffers for 3 days and nights in "exquisite" pain, until he is finally humble enough to call upon God for full forgiveness. IOW, we must give up all our sins to have Christ's atonement work completely in our lives.

As it is, the person who is "saved" from everlasting death and hell, can still be in for a long period of suffering in Spirit Prison/hell, until they finally humble themselves enough to give up all their sins. Even then, while saved from Outer Darkness, we will then be judged for our works and what we have become - and the individual working in organized crime will most likely end up receiving the Telestial Kingdom. It's a nice place, but pales in comparison to the Celestial Kingdom, even as the faint stars pale when compared to the Sun's brilliance.

So, it comes down to not just being saved, but what kind of glory we'd like to have in our salvation.

[ktfords]

The person who sins and does not repent of those sins, will pay for them. In D&C 19, the Lord commands us to repent, or suffer even as he suffered.

Alma 36 gives us an idea of what it would be like, as Alma the Younger suffers for 3 days and nights in "exquisite" pain, until he is finally humble enough to call upon God for full forgiveness. IOW, we must give up all our sins to have Christ's atonement work completely in our lives.

As it is, the person who is "saved" from everlasting death and hell, can still be in for a long period of suffering in Spirit Prison/hell, until they finally humble themselves enough to give up all their sins. Even then, while saved from Outer Darkness, we will then be judged for our works and what we have become - and the individual working in organized crime will most likely end up receiving the Telestial Kingdom. It's a nice place, but pales in comparison to the Celestial Kingdom, even as the faint stars pale when compared to the Sun's brilliance.

So, it comes down to not just being saved, but what kind of glory we'd like to have in our salvation.

Since were talking repentance, can you say you abandoned all of your sin? If not, could it be correctly concluded that your repentance is incomplete and forgiveness has eluded you?

Does a person repent every day? On page 127 of the LDS Church manual Gospel Principles (1992 ed.), it states, “The prophets have declared that ‘this life is the time for men to prepere to meet God’ (Alma 34:32). We should repent now, every day…By repenting every day and having the Lord forgive our sins, we will experience the daily process of becoming perfect.”

On the surface this may seems like sound advice, it actually contradicts page 148 of the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Here, Joseph Smith said, “Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God.”

If you find yourself repenting every day, doesn’t this prove that you have not “completely repented”? Why should people who have forsaken all of their sin while keeping all of the commandments need to repent at all?

If D&C 58:43 is true, people who repent every day only prove that they have not completely repented and are not qualified for exaltation.

President Kimball elaborated on Alma 34:32 when he wrote, “the time to act is now, in this mortal life. One cannot with impunity delay his compliance with God's commandments”

(Miracle, p.10). Do you see a day “in this mortal life” when you will no longer need to repent because you are in complete compliance with all of God’s commandments?

Perheps Rameumptom, you are trying your best. That is commendable, but the problem is President Kimball also said “Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin” (Miracle, --p.164).

Rameumptom, if you carefully examine your life with the impossible requirements set forth by the LDS Church, you should readily see a giant disparity. Why would you want to hold on to a system that only guarantees your failure?

Just trying to understand.

[Islander]

Ktfords:

You are misunderstanding the text. I think our own use and interpretations of words goes a long distance in making sense of the scriptures.

If you are addicted to drugs (for example) and do drugs every day and repent every day but actually DO nothing to free your self from the addiction it is quite a useless exercise and indeed not pleasing to God. For it is empty of true repentance and what is required to abandon the behavior. So indeed repentance is incomplete.

In the other hand, there are things we do every day, sometimes without intent that are contrary to the nature and commandments of God. Short temper, not helpful, not trying hard enough, ignoring our responsibility, being distracted by the physical attributes of another woman, for example. God expects us to recognize these trespasses, to gain insight and repent as to demonstrate our humility and dependency on him for strength to overcome.

On a side note, and please do not take offense but if you desire to understand LDS doctrine you MUST read for your self what is readily available on the church website. Please do not go to other non-LDS sites (Mormonism Research Ministry) to seek information that you do not even understand but serves as ammunition to contend. They ALREADY made up their mind and it is pointless to argue with them. If you have as well then perhaps you can utilize your time in activities that would be more profitable for you.

[StrawberryFields]

I would rather be rich than ugly. -- Jack Handey

So who says that one has to chose?

[bytor2112]

Since were talking repentance, can you say you abandoned all of your sin? If not, could it be correctly concluded that your repentance is incomplete and forgiveness has eluded you?

Does a person repent every day? On page 127 of the LDS Church manual Gospel Principles (1992 ed.), it states, “The prophets have declared that ‘this life is the time for men to prepere to meet God’ (Alma 34:32). We should repent now, every day…By repenting every day and having the Lord forgive our sins, we will experience the daily process of becoming perfect.”

On the surface this may seems like sound advice, it actually contradicts page 148 of the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Here, Joseph Smith said, “Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God.”

If you find yourself repenting every day, doesn’t this prove that you have not “completely repented”? Why should people who have forsaken all of their sin while keeping all of the commandments need to repent at all?

If D&C 58:43 is true, people who repent every day only prove that they have not completely repented and are not qualified for exaltation.

President Kimball elaborated on Alma 34:32 when he wrote, “the time to act is now, in this mortal life. One cannot with impunity delay his compliance with God's commandments”

(Miracle, p.10). Do you see a day “in this mortal life” when you will no longer need to repent because you are in complete compliance with all of God’s commandments?

Perheps Rameumptom, you are trying your best. That is commendable, but the problem is President Kimball also said “Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin” (Miracle, --p.164).

Rameumptom, if you carefully examine your life with the impossible requirements set forth by the LDS Church, you should readily see a giant disparity. Why would you want to hold on to a system that only guarantees your failure?

Just trying to understand.

Ktfords,

I think that these are excellent questions. First of all, we believe that their are sins of omission and sins of commission. Sins of omission are things like not praying daily or not reading the scriptures daily. Sins of commission are sins that we do something to commit. Like stealing or lying. I ask the Lord for forgiveness of my sins and shortcomings every day and ask him for strength to resist temptations.

Repentance is ultimately having a "mighty change of heart". We are striving to become the kind of person that would never have desired to commit the sins that we are guilty of to begin with. If, for example, I watch pornographic movies, but stop. Yet, inside I really still want to watch them....have I repented, have I changed? No.... and yes I know change is a process and that is why true repentance takes time. The Lord eventually wants me to have no desire to ever view pornographic movies again. As for daily repentance and daily transgression..... if I ask the Lord to forgive me for smoking, but the next day I smoke and then I ask for forgiveness that day and then continue to repeat the process...have I repented? More importantly, we are to strive to be like Christ... we can't be perfect and it is not expected, that is why we have the Atonement. The Atonement makes up the difference...after all we can do. Do your best and repent along the way and Eternal life is guaranteed. This notion that we have to be perfect is a false assumption. I have this conversation with a friend often....

We believe that it is by the Grace of Jesus Christ that all humankind may be saved and in no other way. That being said, I can't claim to be a believer and live anyway that I choose and expect the Lord to be happy. Jesus Christ took upon him the sins of the world on conditions of repentance. He is ready to forgive all who will come unto him and keep his commandments. That is the key....keeping his commandments. The system doesn't guarantee failure it asks for change and if we are willing to keep the commandments and change, the Savior will make up the difference.

[ktfords]

Ktfords:

[You are misunderstanding the text. I think our own use and interpretations of words goes a long distance in making sense of the scriptures.

If you are addicted to drugs (for example) and do drugs every day and repent every day but actually DO nothing to free your self from the addiction it is quite a useless exercise and indeed not pleasing to God. For it is empty of true repentance and what is required to abandon the behavior. So indeed repentance is incomplete.

In the other hand, there are things we do every day, sometimes without intent that are contrary to the nature and commandments of God. Short temper, not helpful, not trying hard enough, ignoring our responsibility, being distracted by the physical attributes of another woman, for example. God expects us to recognize these trespasses, to gain insight and repent as to demonstrate our humility and dependency on him for strength to overcome.]

I like how the questions I have asked are avoided/ignored, by telling me, I need to read the BoM. Or I am misunderstanding the text.

BTW, I was responding to rameumptom's post.

Just as you have your apologetics websites, I have my own files on my computer, to save me time and not have to spend 2 hours trying to write a post to get my point across in a fresh letter. Are we to assume, no one here has ever gone to fairlds.org and retrieved an answer. In fact, most of my answers are from LDS.ORG.

Peanutgallery's post

[Quote:

Originally Posted by peanutgallery View Post

Ok, I believe that Christ died for me paid for my sins so I am saved, right? So now, can I go make my fortune in organized crime. I mean, my sins are covered so I may as well make it worth while. Or do I need to obey the commandments and try to be a good person. According to Christians, nothing I do will help so I may as well live it up.]

Maurine's reply:

Some may think, “This is great--once I am saved, I can do just as I please, and not lose my salvation!” But salvation is not about being free to do as one pleases. Salvation is becoming free from having to serve the old sin nature, and being free to pursue a right relationship with God. As long as believers live on this earth in their sinful bodies, there will be a constant struggle with giving in to sin. Living in sin hinders the relationship God seeks to have with mankind, and as long as one lives in sin as a believer, he will not enjoy the relationship God intended to have with him. However, Christians can have victory over the struggle with sin by studying and applying God’s Word (the Bible) in their lives, and being controlled by the Holy Spirit--that is, submitting to the Spirit’s influence and leading in everyday circumstances, and through the Spirit obeying God’s Word.

So, while many religious systems require that a person do certain things or not do certain things, Christianity is about having a relationship with God. Christianity is about believing that Christ died on the cross as payment for your own sin, and rose again. Your sin debt is paid and you can have fellowship with God. You can have victory over your sin nature and walk in fellowship and obedience with God. That is true biblical Christianity.

[Maurine asking peanutgallery a question,

Did the words above (previous post) escape your understanding? ktfords put in the effort to explain and you ignore most of what he said. M.]

The above sentence, Maurine made, sums it up.

So, is it save to say, that if a question/statement is not desirable, is it normal protocol to switch to discredit or claim mis-interpretation mode or even ignore?

Edited July 29, 2008 by ktfords
Clarification

[Vanhin]

My take on this is the following:

In the Bible, Jesus commanded his disciples, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48), and he taught the Nephites after his resurrection, "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." (3 Ne. 12:48). It is clear that God expects us to be perfect, like He is perfect. This is doctrine found in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon; so, I'm not making this up, nor is it unique to the teachings of the restored Church of Jesus Christ.

That's a tall order, I will concede that. However, we should not despair. From the scriptures we have the assurance that even this seemingly impossible thing, is possible. Nephi taught that "...the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." (1 Ne. 3:7). First, the question is, do we believe the scriptures? I do. I believe the scriptures. I believe that God commands us to be perfect, and that He cannot "look upon sin with the least degree of allowance" (D&C 1:31), and I also believe that he has prepared a way for us to accomplish this commandment.

So, the second question is, what is this way that He has prepared? I trust that we all agree on the way. Jesus taught:

...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

The way is the teachings and Atonement of Christ. In order for us to be cleansed of our sins in preparation to return to the presence of the Father, we must 1) have faith in Jesus Christ and in his Atonement, 2) repent of our sins, 3) be baptized by immersion for the remission of our sins, 4) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and 5) endure to the end by relying wholly upon the merits of Christ. It is the last step that I want to expound upon; the part about enduring to the end.

When we repent of our sins, and are baptized by water and fire (gift of the Holy Ghost), we receive a remission of our sins. We become new creatures, born again of the Spirit, and sinless like new born babes. The slate is wiped clean and all our former sins are wiped away, or remitted. God expects us to keep it that way, and He has sent the Holy Ghost to help us and sanctify us along the way. However, He is an all wise and all knowing God, and knew before hand that we, as imperfect mortals, would sin again. Our tendencies and weaknesses are not wiped away at baptism, and many things continue to challenge us until we have, through Christ, overcome them.

Thank God for the ordinance of the Sacrament. It allows us weekly to retain a remission of our sins. After faith and complete repentance, it allows us to be "baptized again". Repentance is not complete, nor are our sins remitted without baptism. Partaking of the sacrament allows us to retain that remission of sins and to receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, so that our repentance can be completed. Some sins are quickly repented of, and we learn our lessons, never to commit them again. In other cases our sins require a little work, and may take years to overcome. We may go through periods of failure and victory, until we have truly forsaken our sins. The Lord revealed that:

By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them. (D&C 58:43)

In this way, step by step, and precept upon precept, we put away the natural man and become truly converted, and perfected in Christ. When we partake of the Sacrament worthily, and receive all the saving ordinances, we are eventually sanctified and sealed unto God by the Holy Spirit of promise. This is what the scriptures mean by making our garments (or robes) white by the blood of the Lamb (1 Nephi 12, Revelation 7). It's a process, and it is one of the reasons our lives have been prolonged; that we might have time to repent (2 Ne. 2:21).

I end with the final words of the Book of Mormon, which were written by the prophet Moroni:

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moroni 10:32-33)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited July 28, 2008 by Vanhin

[bytor2112]

Since were talking repentance, can you say you abandoned all of your sin? If not, could it be correctly concluded that your repentance is incomplete and forgiveness has eluded you?

Repentance is a process. It is not mere abandonment it is having a "mighty change of heart". It is becoming a person that would never have committed these sins to start with. Abandonment of sin is not repentance, it is a step in the repentance process.

Does a person repent every day? On page 127 of the LDS Church manual Gospel Principles (1992 ed.), it states, “The prophets have declared that ‘this life is the time for men to prepere to meet God’ (Alma 34:32). We should repent now, every day…By repenting every day and having the Lord forgive our sins, we will experience the daily process of becoming perfect.”

Yes, we should repent daily. Is there anyone who doesn't need to repent.......repentance= change. We should strive to do better each day.

On the surface this may seems like sound advice, it actually contradicts page 148 of the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Here, Joseph Smith said, “Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God.”

Quite true. Watching pornography today and then asking for forgiveness tonight and then watching pornography tomorrow and then asking forgiveness is not pleasing. It is not true repentance. Their is no effort to abandon the sin and to change.

If you find yourself repenting every day, doesn’t this prove that you have not “completely repented”? Why should people who have forsaken all of their sin while keeping all of the commandments need to repent at all?

Repentance = change. Does anyone forsake all of their sins? Can't we all be better. DO we keep all of the commandments. Are our "hands and our hearts" pure?

President Kimball elaborated on Alma 34:32 when he wrote, “the time to act is now, in this mortal life. One cannot with impunity delay his compliance with God's commandments”

(Miracle, p.10). Do you see a day “in this mortal life” when you will no longer need to repent because you are in complete compliance with all of God’s commandments?

No. I will always need to repent.I will always need to "do a little better today than yesterday.

Perheps Rameumptom, you are trying your best. That is commendable, but the problem is President Kimball also said “Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin” (Miracle, --p.164).

Again the example of viewing pornography applies here. We must become someone who has no desire to view the pornography. Mere abandonment is not enough.

Rameumptom, if you carefully examine your life with the impossible requirements set forth by the LDS Church, you should readily see a giant disparity. Why would you want to hold on to a system that only guarantees your failure?

It doesn't guarantee failure. It promises that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ all mankind may be saved on conditions of repentance. Jesus Christ satisfied the demands of justice, the demands of a broken law. Salvation and Eternal Life is guaranteed to all who come unto him and live his commandments. Staying on the strait and narrow is what is important. Not falling away into serious transgressions is what we truly guard against. Everyone sins. Some sins are more difficult to overcome and more difficult to repent of.... to change from. Losing my temper and yelling at my wife is different than having an affair with my secretary. Both are sins, but one is more severe. Both can be forgiven and both requires change. Obviously the road to the affair took someone way off the strait and narrow and will take them a bit longer to find their way back.

Just trying to understand.

Great questions!!

Edited July 28, 2008 by bytor2112

[funkymonkey]

Funny anti-mormon story...

A co-worker found out I was a mormon and said,

"You guys are Freaks!" and then said "I heard that when your husband dies you have to get locked up!" ...

WHAT?! I started laughing so hard I could barely talk but I asked "where did you hear that?"

and she said with all asurity and gigantic eyes "I READ it!"

I was laughing so hard and just shook my head "no" and later added "so do I get locked up like in a prison or something?"

she said "In a closet!"

I was still laughing and couldn't believe anyone in this day in age would believe that, and so I could only say "don't believe everything you read."

By this time a whole bunch of people were laughing.

After she realized how rediculous her story sounded she walked away in embarassment. The rest of the office staff (all not mormon) tease her about it to this day.

Funny Foot-in-mouth story...

Me and two co-workers went out to lunch and it came up that I was Mormon, so I said "Yeah I'm Mormon" :) and they just sat there looking at me funny so I said "We're not like a cult or anything."

And then one of the girls said "I grew up in a cult."

[Oops] but by that point we were all looking at her funny, so she proceeded to tell us about her childhood.

[Maya]

Some may think, “This is great--once I am saved, I can do just as I please, and not lose my salvation!” But salvation is not about being free to do as one pleases.

* So this one we agree on totally!

Salvation is becoming free from having to serve the old sin nature, and being free to pursue a right relationship with God.

*Are you saying one can nt have a relationship to God if one is not saved? Yes it is hard to have a relationship with anyone if one is negative. Like Paulus before he saw teh Lord Himself.

As long as believers live on this earth in their sinful bodies, there will be a constant struggle with giving in to sin

*Why do you call a body sinfull?? it is not the body but the mind that is sinfull. The body we have is a beautiful gift from God and we should take better care of it!

. Living in sin hinders the relationship God seeks to have with mankind, and as long as one lives in sin as a believer, he will not enjoy the relationship God intended to have with him.

* Agree here. Living in sin hinders us to hear the whispers of the HS it blinds our eyes for finding truths in teh scriptures.

However, Christians can have victory over the struggle with sin by studying and applying God’s Word (the Bible) in their lives,

* Agree again, but no man can winn while on earth there is ONLY one that was perfect without sinn and that was our saviour Jesus Christ. But it can get close.

and being controlled by the Holy Spirit--that is, submitting to the Spirit’s influence and leading in everyday circumstances, and through the Spirit obeying God’s Word.

* Like earlier noted. IF one lives in sin one can not hear the HS. More you study and live according to Gods will doing good more you can hear the whispers.

So, while many religious systems require that a person do certain things or not do certain things,

*Yeah like hit themselves with leather whips and go on knees to a holy place... is taht what you mean?

Christianity is about having a relationship with God.

*What do you understand with a realationship with God??

Christianity is about believing that Christ died on the cross as payment for your own sin, and rose again.

*I DEFINATELY agree!

Your sin debt is paid and you can have fellowship with God. You can have victory over your sin nature and walk in fellowship and obedience with God. That is true biblical Christianity.

* Hmmm... Yes my dept will be payed in full, with the help of JC I will have victory with His help. Fellowship and obedience follow true understanding of the gospel and the gratitude you feel for the atonement. Obedience will be coming from the heart when one understands the hevenly laws. Just as it is here on the earth when one understnds Gods plan you want to work for it not against it.

M.

I wont be around for a couple of days to stand for something I wrote... but I am sure here are others that can answer possible questions wiser than me. Sometimes I wonder about this kind of hinting writtings... where the shoe really presses?? Is it really wrong to do so many right things as LDS do like no smoke, no alkohol, helping around a lot, trying to have help projects, attending the temple doing work for those unable to do it themselves ONLY just in case the person is interested. About the atonement we believe the same as anyone else WHY are we not allowed to do god as our hearts cry for it!? Why cant we show our relationship with God by trying to do god thowards other people? Just wondering

.... .

Edited July 28, 2008 by Maya

[StrawberryFields]

As many of you know I have spent most of my life in Utah and I first really became aware of an "Anti-Mormon" when attending the dedication of The Jordan River Temple. There were people in the parking lots all way to the temple gates passing out information, we were told to ignore them and keep walking. I have seen so many accusations here to members of this site being called this name or that I decided to look up the word Anti-Mormon on a Google search and read the one from wikipedia.org.

If I have read this thread and others correctly that title is being thrown around to many people here and I don't feel that it is right. We need to be careful. Although we don't represent the offcial site we are up towards the top on a Google search for LDS.

[ktfords]

My take on this is the following:

In the Bible, Jesus commanded his disciples, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48), and he taught the Nephites after his resurrection, "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." (3 Ne. 12:48). It is clear that God expects us to be perfect, like He is perfect. This is doctrine found in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon; so, I'm not making this up, nor is it unique to the teachings of the restored Church of Jesus Christ.

That's a tall order, I will concede that. However, we should not despair. From the scriptures we have the assurance that even this seemingly impossible thing, is possible. Nephi taught that "...the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." (1 Ne. 3:7). First, the question is, do we believe the scriptures? I do. I believe the scriptures. I believe that God commands us to be perfect, and that He cannot "look upon sin with the least degree of allowance" (D&C 1:31), and I also believe that he has prepared a way for us to accomplish this commandment.

So, the second question is, what is this way that He has prepared? I trust that we all agree on the way. Jesus taught:

...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

The way is the teachings and Atonement of Christ. In order for us to be cleansed of our sins in preparation to return to the presence of the Father, we must 1) have faith in Jesus Christ and in his Atonement, 2) repent of our sins, 3) be baptized by immersion for the remission of our sins, 4) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and 5) endure to the end by relying wholly upon the merits of Christ. It is the last step that I want to expound upon; the part about enduring to the end.

When we repent of our sins, and are baptized by water and fire (gift of the Holy Ghost), we receive a remission of our sins. We become new creatures, born again of the Spirit, and sinless like new born babes. The slate is wiped clean and all our former sins are wiped away, or remitted. God expects us to keep it that way, and He has sent the Holy Ghost to help us and sanctify us along the way. However, He is an all wise and all knowing God, and knew before hand that we, as imperfect mortals, would sin again. Our tendencies and weaknesses are not wiped away at baptism, and many things continue to challenge us until we have, through Christ, overcome them.

Thank God for the ordinance of the Sacrament. It allows us weekly to retain a remission of our sins. After faith and complete repentance, it allows us to be "baptized again". Repentance is not complete, nor are our sins remitted without baptism. Partaking of the sacrament allows us to retain that remission of sins and to receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, so that our repentance can be completed. Some sins are quickly repented of, and we learn our lessons, never to commit them again. In other cases our sins require a little work, and may take years to overcome. We may go through periods of failure and victory, until we have truly forsaken our sins. The Lord revealed that:

By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them. (D&C 58:43)

In this way, step by step, and precept upon precept, we put away the natural man and become truly converted, and perfected in Christ. When we partake of the Sacrament worthily, and receive all the saving ordinances, we are eventually sanctified and sealed unto God by the Holy Spirit of promise. This is what the scriptures mean by making our garments (or robes) white by the blood of the Lamb (1 Nephi 12, Revelation 7). It's a process, and it is one of the reasons our lives have been prolonged; that we might have time to repent (2 Ne. 2:21).

I end with the final words of the Book of Mormon, which were written by the prophet Moroni:

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moroni 10:32-33)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Vanhin,

I will address the first one of them – Perfection. It appears that “Vanhin” has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace. Total Perfection. ( III Nephi 12:48 – {Essentially the same as Matt 5:48}, I Nephi 3:7, And D&C 1:31. Here is another perfection verse: - Moroni 10:32-

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

I should remind any reader that the most famous LDS scripture on grace is missing from this list. II Nephi 25:23 – “… for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” I would like to ask Vanhin a most important question, “Have you done all you can do?” and a related question, “When have you stopped sinning – become perfect?” and “How often do you repent?” Another question, “Since the Lord promised you that he would prepare a way that you can accomplish the thing that he commandeth – to be perfect – when are you going to receive his way/gift and stop sinning/repenting?” Remember, If you are still repenting - you are still sinning and have not become perfect.

The Book of Mormon asks another question, “Are you sufficiently Humbled?”

Alma 5:27-28

27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? … 28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.

A personal note from me: I know that it is impossible for me to ever stop sinning totally. I will never become perfect and that is the requirement in Mormonism. I know that I can always do better and do more. There has never been a day in my life in which I was be able to do all I CAN do. In Mormonism, I will never qualify for grace. Only Jesus was ever perfect and only he could qualify for Mormon Grace.

I would like to respond to the five “we musts” next time -

1) have faith in Jesus Christ and in his Atonement, 2) repent of our sins, 3) be baptized by immersion for the remission of our sins, 4) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and 5) endure to the end by relying wholly upon the merits of Christ.

[ktfords]

Funny anti-mormon story...

[After she realized how rediculous her story sounded she walked away in embarassment. The rest of the office staff (all not mormon) tease her about it to this day.]

Isn't this the point where someone should have stepped in and told her what you believe, instead of letting her walk away. I would have thought this would have been a perfect time to do some witnessing.

That doesn't sound very Christian to me.

[Jenamarie]

ktfords: I would say that you do not understand "Mormon" Grace. What that 2nd Nephi scripture means isn't that we have a set level of "do'ing" before we can recieve Grace, it's that after all we can do WE STILL NEED GRACE. Of COURSE we will never "do" enough, but that doesn't negate our requirement to "do". Christ makes up for the 99.999999999(not enough 9's)% of the "do'ing" that we will inevitably fail at, but we are still commanded to do our best. We'd remain pretty stagnant in our development if we didn't constantly try to live closer to the Lord's standards, and the Lord wants us to reach the potential, through the power of His Holy Spirit, that He knows we're capable of reaching. We only "fail" when we fail to rely on our Savior to accomplish the "do'ing". I think every Christian would agree that it is only through Christ that we can accomplish any good in this world.

And if I may ask: have you read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover for yourself?

[Jenamarie]

Funny anti-mormon story...

[After she realized how rediculous her story sounded she walked away in embarassment. The rest of the office staff (all not mormon) tease her about it to this day.]

Isn't this the point where someone should have stepped in and told her what you believe, instead of letting her walk away. I would have thought this would have been a perfect time to do some witnessing.

That doesn't sound very Christian to me.

Yes, Mormons do sometimes fail at the whole "being Christ-like" thing from time to time. I thank my Savior Jesus Christ for His Atonement, that I am provided with a way of repenting and overcoming such shortcomings.

[bytor2112]

A personal note from me: I know that it is impossible for me to ever stop sinning totally. I will never become perfect and that is the requirement in Mormonism. I know that I can always do better and do more. There has never been a day in my life in which I was be able to do all I CAN do. In Mormonism, I will never qualify for grace. Only Jesus was ever perfect and only he could qualify for Mormon Grace.

Ktfords,

It is interesting to me that you ignore our explanations of our beliefs and assert your own interpretation of our beliefs. I don't get it, are you really wanting to learn or are you just voicing your opinion? Your statement is false. When you say, "in Mormonism, I will never qualify for grace", your just dead wrong. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is for all humankind, even you and even the worst among us. Your understanding of what we believe is incorrect.

Jesus’ glorious Atonement is the central act in all of human history! It provides the universal Resurrection; it makes our personal repentance and forgiveness possible. Since all of us “have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23), the need for repentance is universal. And mercifully, Christ’s Atonement fits sins of all sizes—whether the smaller sins of omission or major transgressions. Hence, when we turn away from our sins, the required arc of that turning varies from person to person, but it is necessary for all.

The Greek word of which repentance is the English translation “denotes a change of mind, i.e., a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world” (Bible Dictionary, “Repentance,” 760). This means we are to change our thoughts and then behavior until we are turned away from our sins and are aligned with God’s commandments. This change of mind means that we are actually progressing toward what Paul called “the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:16). Repentance is thus a continuing process in which each of us needs to draw on the Atonement for real relief, real forgiveness, and real progress.

Christ gave us freely an enormous and unconditional gift: the universal Resurrection. However, Christ’s proffer of the further gift of eternal life is conditional. As our Lawgiver, He sets the terms for receiving this great gift (see 3 Ne. 11:31–41; 3 Ne. 15:9–10; 3 Ne. 27:13–21). Therefore, our individual progress toward eternal life requires us to be willing to submit to Christ (see Mosiah 3:19). Then, if we are truly faithful and endure to the end, our wills can finally be swallowed up in the will of the Father (see Mosiah 15:7; 3 Ne. 11:11).

However, to begin such a significant transformation, we must first “give away all [our] sins” (Alma 22:18), and who else will take them anyway except Jesus? (see Alma 36:18–20).-Elder Neil Maxwell

[bytor2112]

Ktfords,

I am a former Southern Baptist and know a great deal about the belief in "salvation by grace". I was a "saved and born-again" Christian. I didn't live like a Christian should, but I was saved. I wasn't a good example of Jesus Christ to anybody. As a member of the LDS church I realize that there were a lot of very faithful members of the Baptist faith who were good examples of Jesus Christ. They were striving each day to be a better person, to be more loving, gentle, kind, compassionate....to be more Christ-like. They realized as I do now as a Latter Day Saint, that they had a responsibility to be an example to others.

We are not so very far apart in our beliefs. We believe that we will be accountable for what we do in this life. As members of the LDS church we believe that we should strive to live a Christ-like life. The admonition to be perfect....is like urging my sons to get a perfect score or a coach telling his team to play perfectly. The Lord raises the bar high so that when we fall, it is not to far. My Baptists friends often ask me, "if you died today are you sure you would go to heaven?" I am sure that if I remain faithful all of my life and stay "close" to the Lord, I will receive Eternal life. It is guaranteed. Mercy has satisfied the demands of Justice. Now, because I love the Lord I will strive to live his commandments and like my faithful Baptist friends and other Christians around the world, I will try to be a better man. I will love more, be kinder and more gentle, more charitable and when I screw up...and I will, I will ask forgiveness and resolve to do better. His "grace" is available to all.

[funkymonkey]

Isn't this the point where someone should have stepped in and told her what you believe, instead of letting her walk away. I would have thought this would have been a perfect time to do some witnessing.

That doesn't sound very Christian to me.

No worries, KT.

I'm most definitely not perfect, but I do have a sense of humor... To be honest I see myself as a total screwball just lucky to get something right in the day.

It really wasn't the "perfect time" because we were all going into a meeting.

Because it became a little office joke, there were plenty of opportunities to "set the record straight" every time someone brought it up...and actually with lots more people than just her. For my wierd personality it worked out well because I didn't have get sappy or cheezy to share different aspects of the gospel.

The dynamic of the office wasn't exactly "straight and serious"...

We're all good friends and bring up little funny things now and then.

They would tease me all the time because my husband looked just like me (supposedly) and someone thought he really was my brother and asked one of the girls why I was kissing my brother. She told him that was my husband of course...

So whenever they bring it up, I just smile and say "yeah, my brother's hot."

...like I said, I'm a screwball.

[The_Incredible_Piff]

what i find the most interesting is the majority of anti-mormons are generally made up of either 1) former members who claim to have held high positions inside the church that have seen the light and have been "rescued" or 2) non members who apparently have spent years not only debating but educating themselves on LDS Doctrine in attempts to "rescue" it's members.

everybody is an expert.

[bytor2112]

What I find most interesting is the fact that they "know" what we believe, better than we do. Even when we explain what we believe, they are like...no, unuh, you believe this.

[bytor2112]

Another thing that I find interesting is that they can't comprehend that the Mysteries of God are endless. Or that there are actually more pieces of the puzzle that they realize and that salvation or Eternal life actually have a few requirements in order to obtain or that the beauty of the BOM is that it proves that Jesus is the Christ and adds a broader foundation to and explains further the Bible. Or that God can still speak to his children through the mouth of Prophets, ancient and modern.

[Jenamarie]

I think another thing that causes misunderstanding is the assumption by Christians, looking at our doctrine through their traditional-Christian eyes, see our need to be "perfect" as a sure-fire route to Hell. Because their belief in the afterlife is very black & white (Heaven or Hell) it's difficult for them to grasp that even if someone falls short of the "ideal" according to LDS theology, they're *still* saved from Eternal Damnation through faith in Christ. They think our admonition to keep trying means we believe that our Salvation from Hell isn't yet complete. But even though we may not achieve Celestial Glory, we will still recieve *some* reward. I hear many traditional-Christians talking about how their works don't save them, but do earn them greater "rewards" or nicer "mansions" in Heaven, and I want to say BINGO! LDS theology right there!

Edited July 29, 2008 by Jenamarie

[ktfords]

What I find most interesting is the fact that they "know" what we believe, better than we do. Even when we explain what we believe, they are like...no, unuh, you believe this.

A few posts ago

, I was asked what I believe.

Isn't that what Vanhin did to me?

[bytor2112]

I think another thing that causes misunderstanding is the assumption by Christians, looking at our doctrine through their traditional-Christian eyes, see our need to be "perfect" as a sure-fire route to Hell. Because their belief in the afterlife is very black & white (Heaven or Hell) it's difficult for them to grasp that even if someone falls short of the "ideal" according to LDS theology, they're *still* saved from Eternal Damnation through faith in Christ. They think our admonition to keep trying means we believe that our Salvation from Hell isn't yet complete. But even though we may not achieve Celestial Glory, we will still recieve *some* reward. I hear many traditional-Christians talking about how their works don't save them, but do earn them greater "rewards" or nicer "mansions" in Heaven, and I want to say BINGO! LDS theology right there!

Or that if we do fall short, that because of the Atonement, we can repent and still recieve Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom!!

;);):)