Restoration questions........

[bytor2112]

A Baptist friend once asked me if we (LDS) ever get tired of trying to explain aspects of our faith that seem unexplainable. Polygamy, Joseph and the Seer Stones, Book of Abraham, alleged anachronisms and alleged plagiarisms,lack of archaeological evidences etc. He asked if God were to really restore his church why would God put so many obstacles, like the above mentioned, that prevent more people from joining our church.

These are questions that many investigators grapple with and this kind of information is readily available via the net. My answer usually revolves around reading the Book of Mormon and praying to see if it is true and then in the light of the Spirit you can better understand these type of questions. Of course, he tells me that the Bible says to study the scriptures and I say -exactly. The BOM is scripture, study it out.

How do we answer these questions, why would God place what seems to some, obstacles like those mentioned above in the way of believing? Thoughts??

[FunkyTown]

Wait... Your friend is saying -God- is placing the obstacles of things like "Joseph and the Seer Stones" in our way? You should ask your friend the following questions:

1) Joseph and the Seer Stones - Was God the one writing libellous stories on the 'net?

2) Polygamy - Ask him if he believes in the Old Testament. Reply, "Why would God have put obstacles in front of the faithful that involves having to explain him commanding genocide of the people who were in the Holy Land prior to the Jews.

3) Anachronisms - This is fair. Ask him if there are any anachronisms in the bible that people perceive. His argument will either be "No." in which case you can kindly say "Well, let's use the scrutiny you're using on my beliefs on yours. Go to google and type 'Bible anachronism'. I believe as you do that the bible is inerrant, which means that the perceived anachronisms are mistakes of the perceiver and not the perceived." Then, point out, "Many anachronisms in the bible were later proven to be not anachronistic at all. If I were able to find examples of things that were perceived to be anachronistic that were later proven right, would you convert?" He will say no. Then, you say "Then why are we arguing?"

However, he may say yes. At that point, point to discoveries of cave drawings in South America that show that horses -have- been in South America. For quite some time.

4) The book of Abraham - I assume he's referring to the scrolls that were found that people said were basic funerary scrolls? Point out to him that the Rosetta Stone was not a dictionary. It was very basic and does not allow inerrant translations. Then point them to LDS FAQ: The Truth About the Book of Abraham, Part 1

[Misshalfway]

If I were there and talking to your friend, I wouldn't have any problem saying 'Yes I am sick of it'! :)

I would also add that Satan has been against this work from the get go. And anyone who really understands the work of God will understand that the biggest storm will always follow the truth! Aligning yourself with Christ is absolutely taking sides and definitely puts one in the firing line.

[bytor2112]

Respectfully asking these type of questions doesn't offend me...it opens the doors to opportunities to share the truth. I think he is asking why there seem to be so many things that make other Christian denominations scratch their head. Admittedly polygamy is a tough one for many to swallow and can sidetrack investigators from learning the truth. Would the church have grown more if some of the things people question hadn't existed? Or would it not have grown at all or even been restored without these type of things or is Heavenly Father insuring that in the end we have to rely on Faith and the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

[Traveler]

A Baptist friend once asked me if we (LDS) ever get tired of trying to explain aspects of our faith that seem unexplainable. Polygamy, Joseph and the Seer Stones, Book of Abraham, alleged anachronisms and alleged plagiarisms,lack of archaeological evidences etc. He asked if God were to really restore his church why would God put so many obstacles, like the above mentioned, that prevent more people from joining our church.

These are questions that many investigators grapple with and this kind of information is readily available via the net. My answer usually revolves around reading the Book of Mormon and praying to see if it is true and then in the light of the Spirit you can better understand these type of questions. Of course, he tells me that the Bible says to study the scriptures and I say -exactly. The BOM is scripture, study it out.

How do we answer these questions, why would God place what seems to some, obstacles like those mentioned above in the way of believing? Thoughts??

My response is that not much has changed - and I point out the criticisms of Christ from the Scribes and Pharisees. The book of John chapters 6 - 12 is quite interesting. I particular like Chapter 10 and when Jesus was told he was opposed not because of anything that he does but because of his doctrine that he being a man will make himself a G-d. Ever heard that before?

The Traveler

[candyprpl]

Quote from FunkyTown - "Wait... Your friend is saying -God- is placing the obstacles of things like "Joseph and the Seer Stones" in our way?"

Didn't the Apostles in the New Testament times have simalar obstacles to contend with when setting up the original Church of Jesus Christ?

Satan is out there always to stop the church from going forward. Heavenly Father allows people according to their agency to do what they please.

[rameumptom]

I would respond that answering sincere questions is never tiring. It is answering the insincere questions that are really attacks in disguise that get rather droll.

Most of the issues that are presented against Mormonism can be used against the Bible and Christianity. In reality, Christians who attack Mormons on certain issues are actually shooting themselves in the same foot they seek to shoot us in. If the Book of Mormon seems to have anachronisms, so does the Bible (for example, Isaiah stating that Cyrus would restore the Jews is considered to have been written by Deutero-Isaiah; or that Daniel was written around 200 BC, and so his prophecies are actually anachronistic writings by some later Jew, etc). Sometimes things aren't always what they seem, and we need to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Some would attack Joseph Smith for supposedly making some false prophecies, insisting that a prophet is never wrong. Having said that, I'd have to reject Jesus, for predicting that the second coming would come in that same generation as his apostles (Mat 24).

The key always comes back to studying the Book of Mormon and pondering its message to see if it leads a person to Christ or not. Is it God's work and word?

[Misshalfway]

Isn't polygamy a question for any believer of the OT?

Well, said Ram.

[DigitalShadow]

A Baptist friend once asked me if we (LDS) ever get tired of trying to explain aspects of our faith that seem unexplainable. Polygamy, Joseph and the Seer Stones, Book of Abraham, alleged anachronisms and alleged plagiarisms,lack of archaeological evidences etc. He asked if God were to really restore his church why would God put so many obstacles, like the above mentioned, that prevent more people from joining our church.

These are questions that many investigators grapple with and this kind of information is readily available via the net. My answer usually revolves around reading the Book of Mormon and praying to see if it is true and then in the light of the Spirit you can better understand these type of questions. Of course, he tells me that the Bible says to study the scriptures and I say -exactly. The BOM is scripture, study it out.

How do we answer these questions, why would God place what seems to some, obstacles like those mentioned above in the way of believing? Thoughts??

I've often wondered the same thing. Assuming there is a God, and He wants His children to know His true nature, why does He not make it more clear that He exists and that a particular set of scriptures are sanctioned by Him? I've heard the standard free agency response many times, but I don't see how making it clear that He exists violates anyone's free agency. In fact, if the scriptures are true, He has appeared to or otherwise made himself known beyond a shadow of a doubt to many people and sometimes they obey and sometimes they don't. Why not do that for everyone? I am told that you can pray and know the truth, but many people around the world do pray and get different answers. Are they somehow doing it wrong?

I've asked these questions before and gotten varying responses, but I still haven't gotten a personally satisfying answer. Usually the answer is along the lines of "because that's just the way things are."

[rameumptom]

Too many Christians and others seek for proof, which just isn't there. Or they have a skewed view of what proof is or should be.

Instead, we need to seek spiritual evidence through spiritual methods. We can only find God in one way, and it isn't looking through a telescope or microscope.

[rameumptom]

I've often wondered the same thing. Assuming there is a God, and He wants His children to know His true nature, why does He not make it more clear that He exists and that a particular set of scriptures are sanctioned by Him? I've heard the standard free agency response many times, but I don't see how making it clear that He exists violates anyone's free agency. In fact, if the scriptures are true, He has appeared to or otherwise made himself known beyond a shadow of a doubt to many people and sometimes they obey and sometimes they don't. Why not do that for everyone? I am told that you can pray and know the truth, but many people around the world do pray and get different answers. Are they somehow doing it wrong?

I've asked these questions before and gotten varying responses, but I still haven't gotten a personally satisfying answer. Usually the answer is along the lines of "because that's just the way things are."

The day will come when He will reveal all things. Right now, spiritual things are basically hidden behind a veil, so we can develop faith, hope, patience, and other gifts, which would be near impossible to develop with a perfect knowledge.

Alma 32 explains that if we KNEW which church was true, etc., then there would be no reason for faith. That level of knowledge would coerce us to believe a certain way, reducing the limits of our own agency; or making us responsible for knowledge we may not be ready for.

God reveals himself a little at a time, when we are ready for him, he shows himself. Often he reveals himself through the natural world, so that our faith remains intact. But he is there.

[Misshalfway]

I think the Lord has tried to make it clear. If you look at the histories of the dispensations, the behavior is very cyclic and almost predictable. There are usually prophets, they usually get killed or stoned, and the truth is taken away and is then presented in a new dispensation for another try.

[DigitalShadow]

The day will come when He will reveal all things. Right now, spiritual things are basically hidden behind a veil, so we can develop faith, hope, patience, and other gifts, which would be near impossible to develop with a perfect knowledge.

I am not suggesting we be given a 'perfect' knowledge, only wondering why God wouldn't make himself known to those who sincerely seek Him.

Alma 32 explains that if we KNEW which church was true, etc., then there would be no reason for faith. That level of knowledge would coerce us to believe a certain way, reducing the limits of our own agency; or making us responsible for knowledge we may not be ready for.

What about the people in the scriptures who He appeared to or sent angels to? Does He not care about their free agency, or burdening them with knowledge they are not ready for?

We already have the responsibility of acting according to the rules He has laid out, whether we are aware which ones are right or not. Wouldn't it make more sense to make Himself known and which scriptures are truly His so that we all know what we are supposed to follow and can make the choice for ourselves whether or not to follow?

God reveals himself a little at a time, when we are ready for him, he shows himself. Often he reveals himself through the natural world, so that our faith remains intact. But he is there.

So basically He reveals Himself in ways that if you didn't already believe He exists, you wouldn't notice? I believe that is called confirmation bais.

[DigitalShadow]

I think the Lord has tried to make it clear. If you look at the histories of the dispensations, the behavior is very cyclic and almost predictable. There are usually prophets, they usually get killed or stoned, and the truth is taken away and is then presented in a new dispensation for another try.

If the Lord is perfect, and we are His creations, why is there any try involved here? Either He does something, or he didn't want to do it in the first place, there is no try for the omnipotent.

[DigitalShadow]

Just to be clear; I'm not trying to be mean or antagonistic, but this is one of the major stumbling blocks for me accepting the Gospel and so I would like to discuss it further.

[Misshalfway]

I have never known you to be antagonistic, DS. Except perhaps, when you are hoarding all your music!! :)

Perhaps "try" was the wrong word. The gospel truth has been taken because of sin. New generations are given new chances to obey......new chances to follow the Lord. "How oft I would have gathered you....but you would not." (NT)

I don't know why God doesn't make himself known in more obvious ways to the rank and file of us all. Why did Joseph and Stephen and Lehi and Moroni and Alma and Moses and Enoch and so many others get the heavens opening and the Lord revealing himself? Why do my prayers reap only a whisper or what seems like nothing at all?

DS. I have been all over the map with regards to prayer. And I have experienced almost every kind of answer. I know this. Any blessing is only given after obedience to a certain law. Let me quote the scripture.

D&C 130

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

I only know that when I have really put the pedal to the metal, so to speak, I have never come away fruitless. I also know, DS, that sometimes the blessings come after you jump in the deep end. Meaning that after you get wet, you will then know what water feels like. But again you have to jump in. You know?

And I am gonna wonder, have you studied the D&C? Cause I really think it is just your speed.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

I am not suggesting we be given a 'perfect' knowledge, only wondering why God wouldn't make himself known to those who sincerely seek Him.

What about the people in the scriptures who He appeared to or sent angels to? Does He not care about their free agency, or burdening them with knowledge they are not ready for?

We already have the responsibility of acting according to the rules He has laid out, whether we are aware which ones are right or not. Wouldn't it make more sense to make Himself known and which scriptures are truly His so that we all know what we are supposed to follow and can make the choice for ourselves whether or not to follow?

So basically He reveals Himself in ways that if you didn't already believe He exists, you wouldn't notice? I believe that is called confirmation bais.

You are forgetting, DS, that there are other forces at play here too. Who do you think is the author of false churches and priests and doctrines? Who do you think starts holy wars and unholy practices? Who is it that flatters the hearts of the children of men into wanting power and comforts and wealth? Remember that part of God's purpose is to test us. What good would the test be if there weren't such difficulty?

[DigitalShadow]

I have never known you to be antagonistic, DS. Except perhaps, when you are hoarding all your music!! :)

It's not me that hoards the music, it is the music labels

Perhaps "try" was the wrong word. The gospel truth has been taken because of sin. New generations are given new chances to obey......new chances to follow the Lord. "How oft I would have gathered you....but you would not." (NT)

I don't know why God doesn't make himself known in more obvious ways to the rank and file of us all. Why did Joseph and Stephen and Lehi and Moroni and Alma and Moses and Enoch and so many others get the heavens opening and the Lord revealing himself? Why do my prayers reap only a whisper or what seems like nothing at all?

DS. I have been all over the map with regards to prayer. And I have experienced almost every kind of answer. I know this. Any blessing is only given after obedience to a certain law. Let me quote the scripture.

D&C 130

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

I only know that when I have really put the pedal to the metal, so to speak, I have never come away fruitless. I also know, DS, that sometimes the blessings come after you jump in the deep end. Meaning that after you get wet, you will then know what water feels like. But again you have to jump in. You know?

Why rely on just a couple people to deliver such an message? Not everyone in the world gets a chance to meet or talk to these people or even hear what they say. Why not just deliver the message to everyone at once and let them decide for themselves instead of making them hear from word of mouth which can (and often is) unreliable?

And I am gonna wonder, have you studied the D&C? Cause I really think it is just your speed.

I haven't been reading as much of the scriptures as I should. I've been busy with work and moving lately

[Misshalfway]

Keep in mind that of all the servants called and employed by God, only some of them got their names recorded and and there may be many whose activites were never recorded.

Keep in mind also, that we are eternal beings. We are here on this planet for two primary reasons; to get a body and to have a mortal experience. It doesn't take faith to achieve those two primary objectives. We then are tested and given the opportunity to choose. And as you have so eloquently pointed out, there is much in this world to choose from. So, in that way, objective # 3 is accomplished as well. Believing the truth is a huge and vast thing.....considering that I have no possible way to measure truth....nor do I confine God to a church, even if it is my own. I think that after all that work and effort and influence, that God then does start dispensations and he shines a light and hopes that his children will seek after him. If they come one step...then he leads them to another and another. And for those who never hear the name of Christ, the Spirit world covers them. God is just and all powerful and all that.....but He is also infinitely merciful and very capable of covering all the bases.

Oh.. and happy moving.

[DigitalShadow]

You are forgetting, DS, that there are other forces at play here too. Who do you think is the author of false churches and priests and doctrines? Who do you think starts holy wars and unholy practices? Who is it that flatters the hearts of the children of men into wanting power and comforts and wealth? Remember that part of God's purpose is to test us. What good would the test be if there weren't such difficulty?

Test us for what though? What about the terrorist who was raised to believe that God wants him to wage a holy war against the enemies of his faith and grows up to sacrifice himself for what he wholeheartedly believes is God's cause? Did he fail the test that he didn't even know the rules to? Is he any better or worse than the person who was fortunate enough to be raised in a household who taught them from birth to believe in the 'true' religion and grew up to faithfully follow it? Both people believed what they had been taught their whole life and were completely faithful to those principles.

[Misshalfway]

Every person who comes to this earth, is hot wired to know good from evil. Make no mistake about that!

Some listen to that truth-meter within and some deny it or ignore it or decide they like the carnal better.

Look. There is truth in the universe. There is also the antithesis of such in all of its degrees! They are liars, DS! Liars! It up to us to think for ourselves and act for ourselves no matter who tries to oppress us. Did you ever read Victor Frankel about the Jews in the camps? They can take our clothes and our freedom, but they can't take our decisions about who and what we are!!!

Each of us have different challenges, circumstances, cultures. Each of us has to navigate thru that. Pain is a great teacher!!! Easy roads don't reap great benefits. We all want it easy. But things we reap the easy way are rarely the things we cherish.

[Misshalfway]

And you will probably smirk when I say this..... but I won't sugar coat it for you. Ya gottawanna, my friend. When you are ready to stop waiting for it to come to you.....when your soul really hungers....when you decide to focus your energies of heart and soul....then you will find your answers.

I promise!!!

Again......when you are ready!

[DigitalShadow]

Every person who comes to this earth, is hot wired to know good from evil. Make no mistake about that!

Some listen to that truth-meter within and some deny it or ignore it or decide they like the carnal better.

Look. There is truth in the universe. There is also the antithesis of such in all of its degrees! They are liars, DS! Liars! It up to us to think for ourselves and act for ourselves no matter who tries to oppress us. Did you ever read Victor Frankel about the Jews in the camps? They can take our clothes and our freedom, but they can't take our decisions about who and what we are!!!

Each of us have different challenges, circumstances, cultures. Each of us has to navigate thru that. Pain is a great teacher!!! Easy roads don't reap great benefits. We all want it easy. But things we reap the easy way are rarely the things we cherish.

I disagree with your point about everyone being hard wired to know good from evil, we've been over this topic in my thread about where morality comes from. I would also like to point to my example of the terrorists who die in what they believe is service to God. If they knew they were doing evil, why would they think God would reward them for it? Why would they be so sure it is the right thing to do that they would die for it? What earthly benefit would that give them?

[DigitalShadow]

And you will probably smirk when I say this..... but I won't sugar coat it for you. Ya gottawanna, my friend. When you are ready to stop waiting for it to come to you.....when your soul really hungers....when you decide to focus your energies of heart and soul....then you will find your answers.

I promise!!!

Again......when you are ready!

I have sought the truth far more than many people faithful and nonbeliever alike, and I still don't have answers

[Misshalfway]

Well, I know you don't believe it. But IF there were a God, and IF he chose not to make everything obvious, don't you think he would give his children the tools to pass the test? For the sake of argument, of course.

I am only inviting you to try on a different point of view and to perhaps argue in favor of said point of view....even if it is only for the value of the exercise. You are in fact open minded. At least that is what I have been told. (teasing poke)